Chinese Lathe Accessories.

[SiddleyParticipant @siddley]

This thread makes me think there is an opportunity for someone in the UK to make certain Myford accessories and spares properly.

Obviously a lot of items wouldn't be economical to produce but there's got to be a few quid in it if you pick the right bits.

[TerrydParticipant @terryd72465]

I wouldn't call RDG a 'cowboy' supplier. I have had nothing but good products and service from them over the years. I have dealt with Chris and found him polite and helpful, but then I also dealt with him courteously and he reciprocated. The only time I had a problem with a small milling cutter it was replaced without question with no need to return the original faulty tool. I have had the same service from Arc with whom I have had excellent service and products, I know Ketan and would always recommend his company to anyone who asks, with confidence. As for the other main suppliers I have had only minimum dealings with them (except for my excellent chinese lathe from Warco) but have heard of few, if any complaints compared with the huge number of transactions they must carry out.

The mechanisms of name calling and use of dubious metaphors I do not consider to be 'positive' contributions to any thread. Perhaps you simply want us all to agree with your complaints?

By the way, I too served an apprenticeship of 5 years in Engineering (in the early 60s) and have had many years experience and agree that Boxford are excellent (I have a CSB and a BUD) but for ease of use and accuracy they will not beat my Chinese lathe with it's Indian HBM chucks. They are very fit for purpose..

Best regards

Terry

[Billy MillsParticipant @billymills]

Perhaps Alan you have failed to get the drift. The majority of RDG's customers are happy with the way that they operate and the fair pricing. IIf you were able to go to a show you would see that their stand is always very busy. They are a good supplier and a family run firm.

Being a retailer in today's climate is not easy, costs have never been greater, frauds more common, shows more expensive and then you get the odd individual customer using forums to try to turn people against your business.

Spend 5 mins turning down those bushes or make some new ones- job done. Then have a nice Christmas and a happy New Year, Peace on Earth and goodwill to All. Life is too short.

Peace be with you.

Billy.

[John Stevenson 1Participant @johnstevenson1]

Or buy a Reliant seeing as I have been accused of derailing the thread.

[John Stevenson 1Participant @johnstevenson1]

Posted by alan smith 6 on 15/12/2012 12:12:57:

If you don`t have something positive to add to to the thread then please go back to what you normally do whatever that is.

Alan

.

Engineering ?

OK point taken, just off to make a new batch of Myford COMPATABLE gears.

John S.

[Ex contributorParticipant @mgnbuk]

"Spend 5 mins turning down those bushes or make some new ones- job done."

The OP stated the bushes supplied were 24 thou undersize ?

And the Myford changewheel bushes mentioned are hobbed to have an integral male key, so could not be "turned down" or otherwise easily modified to make them usable? Hence "not fit for purpose"

Regards,

Nigel B.

[TerrydParticipant @terryd72465]

Hi John,

Sorry to derail the thread further but I seem to have been followed everywher by a grey Reliant (the metaalic paint is probably worth more than the vehicle itself) which has appeared locally witih the last two months. I thought that they were all dead!

Regards

Terry.

[speelwerkParticipant @speelwerk]

"Over the years I have watched our manufacturing capacity dwindle to almost zero, If you drive through a former industrial area it`s appalling to see the devastation that has ocurred. Other countries like Germany where the inhabitants buy German made items are less badly affected."

Not only Britain has lost much of his manufacturing capacity, Germany is the same story. When you drove in the sixties and seventies through the Ruhr valley it was a smoke screen and you could clean your car afterwards. Factory’s were sold completely to China, before the workers where without a job they took their own workplace apart and boxed it for shipping.

Niko.

[Ketan SwaliParticipant @ketanswali79440]

Posted by Lambton on 15/12/2012 12:25:25:

Can someone please tell my why the factories that make these parts produce items that cannot possibly fulfil their basic function when it is just as easy to make them correctly.

Is it the fault of the suppliers who obviously do not carry out sufficient quality control checks?

Not entirely, it is also my fault and the fault of other model engineers for always wanting a bargain regardless of origin. The suppliers are only fulfilling our demand. If they were to offer higher priced quality items no one would buy them – look what happened to the excellent Hobbymat lathe that is still made in Germany but no longer sold in this country because it is too expensive.

This is one possible answer to your question:

Specifically with reference to parts being discussed by Andy and you, these parts are made by cottage industry in the north of India, in the regions between Punjab to outskerts of Delhi. In these workshops, quality control, material source, labour, come at a price. Often, relationships between the workers and the factory owners are not great. Most are employed on piecework basis when there is work to be done. Consistency is variable. The way it works is this:

For example, a U.K. company places an order with an Export House in Delhi. They in turn will farm out the work to the cheapest bidder. The guy at the top sits in his chair and takes in the money. Why should the guy at the bottom give a s**t on Q.C.?. This is a 'simple' summary of a complex situation. This is a fact, regardless of what any 'white' importers will tell you, specifically in the model engineering game. To be fair, there are some operations – even cottage industry, which are reliable and consistent – but very few. In most cases, as soon as the white guy – 'buyer' is out of the building, the real story begins.

The consistent cottage industry operations will probably not get repeat orders from the main Exporter, as the main exporter will always be looking for the cheapest source. I am of Indian origin. I have been inside these workshops and spoken with the workers. I have also visited local sellers in Delhi and Bombay. Let me put it this way. Over 80% of Indian origin stuff which is bought by hobby engineers is not sold or bought by users within the Indian market, mainly as it would not stand up to heavy use. Indian industrial users are not exactly 'light handed' when they have targets to meet at low wages. However, having said this, the said products may be acceptable for hobby use.

There is high end stuff made there, as well as in China, but simply not for export, as we 'the collective' will not pay the price. The only product ARC sells of Indian origin is Zither chucks. As you see, our prices for these are much higher then any of our competitors. There are already enough suppliers and buyers of other Indian origin stuff at ever increasing competitive prices.

As a side note: Chris of RDG is indeed polite as Terry says. May be he said that the product supplied to Andy was of Chinese origin – by mistake?. Product mentioned by Lambton is definitly of Indian origin.

Ketan at ARC.

[alan smith 6Participant @alansmith6]

Dear thread posters,

John Terry etc.

Instead of creating fog, please could I have your comments on the case in my last posting where components were delivered grossly undersized.

John, what would you do if a customer came back to you with a component that was grossly undersized or oversized?

Nigel, The RDC component comes with the key as a separate part and they don`t fit in the keyways in the barrels!

If you put right parts that were delivered with faults, I understand that this gives a quicker result than sending them back to the supplier but then you are perpetuating this dodgy practice by the supplier and things will not change for the better!

Alan

[Ketan SwaliParticipant @ketanswali79440]

Posted by Terryd on 15/12/2012 12:42:55:

By the way, I too served an apprenticeship of 5 years in Engineering (in the early 60s) and have had many years experience and agree that Boxford are excellent (I have a CSB and a BUD) but for ease of use and accuracy they will not beat my Chinese lathe with it's Indian HBM chucks. They are very fit for purpose..

Terrys example of HBM is very good. It is fit for his purpose. HBM – mainly a Holland based opertion, buys lathe chucks in big bulk quantity from China and India at an extreamly competitive price. HBM will not buy from Zither in India because they wont pay the price which Zither wants. HBM will not pay the price which Huhhot in China want, for the same reason. Regular users in India will not buy HBM Indian chucks. Most Indian users dont know what HBM is. Only I, key dealers, Engineering Export Houses know the sub-contractors for HBM. Similarly, if you are a user in China, you will prefer Huhhot any day, against the Chinese HBM sub-contractors. BUT, Zither and Huhot come at a price. If you are depending on them for your living, the Indian and Chinese users will not buy HBM.

Again, it does not mean that HBM is not fit for purpose. If it meets your purpose, well and good.

Ketan at ARC.

[Ketan SwaliParticipant @ketanswali79440]

Posted by Donald Wittmann on 15/12/2012 14:48:26:

Ps, Model engineers are not alone, because the Chinese so called Production machines are in the same league as their domestic siblings. Rubbish.

Donald.

Donald,

You only see what we the importers want you to see for the price you want to pay – be it model engineering or production machinery. There are places in China and in India which manufacture engineering products, end mills, machines- lathes and mills which can take on any world class operations. Please do not form a sterio typical picture of these countries abilities, based on little knowledge gained from a 'small' model engineering environment!. i say this with the greatest of respect.

Ketan at ARC.

 

Edited By Ketan Swali on 15/12/2012 15:26:32

Edited By David Clark 1 on 16/12/2012 09:38:36

[KWILParticipant @kwil]

For all of you pessimists out there about the total loss of UK manufacturing, you should read this

[Ketan SwaliParticipant @ketanswali79440]

Posted by Donald Wittmann on 15/12/2012 14:48:26:

I have heard untold horror stories about cheap tools /machines [usually from China / India ] and then the purchaser has to try to make them fit for purpose. Chinese / Indian tools are a rip off . A few examples, Morse tapers not to gauge, drill,taps and end mills made from crap steel , Machines that more or less have to be rebuilt to make them REASONABLY accurate.

In the majority of cases, 'the comments you have heard' are very much unfounded. There is a minority case to be answered, based on the price YOU want to pay. As I have said before, most such products are fit for purpose. I too have heard untold horry stories of people who make such comments and they are indeed not fit for purpose, but you dont see me talking about them , without real fact.

Sorry Andy – this does not refer to you, and I am sorry that it deviates from your specific point, but I felt that I had to respond to this comment.

Ketan at ARC.

Edited By David Clark 1 on 16/12/2012 09:44:39

Edited By David Clark 1 on 16/12/2012 09:45:29

[jim bothParticipant @jimboth37830]

the problem is not the country of origin of these parts, its a lack of quality control.

Some suppliers (notably ARC) appear to have good (enough) quality and cost.

Others just let the end user do the quality control, i have just spent £3000 on a new lathe and found that i can't buy soft jaws for the chuck! in fairness i have been given a new chuck, but its a problem they are aware of (at least three different sizes of jaws are being used!!).

I don't mind having to "fine tune" the lathe, at its price.

[Donald WittmannParticipant @donaldwittmann92536]

Ketan.

I have not formed an opinion on these machines [production ones] from a model engineering aspect I have formed my opinion through many years in a production setting [look at my profile for more info] Yes, unfotunately I have had to use a couple of Chinese lathes on occasion [ thankfully not often ] and form my opinion on that basis. You mention there are chinese machines that can take on the best in the world!!! well that I would like to see. Glidemeister, DMG Broadbent Stanley Mori Seiki and others, versus the best China can offer , no contest i'm afraid ,China man last every time.

Donald.

[NJHParticipant @njh]

Hi Lambton

Re Myford you say you bought a travelling steady for your lathe :-

"One trader was selling genuine Myford ones at £45 which is a good discount and represented a very good deal. Did I buy one? No like an idiot I bought a “pattern” one for £21,"

(The Myford price is £63.54 inc vat.)

Firstly I think you should have been a bit suspicious ! but you retained your £21 purchase and modified it to suit. At minimal outlay for parts you modified your cheapo purchase, saved yourself over £42 on the "Genuine" price, got a bit of practice in and had some fun in the workshop! Where's the problem?

My own approach was to buy the casting from College Engineering for just under £20 and make my own. I enjoyed the job – it probably would have been quicker to modify one like your £21 version but I guess they will all do the job – and how often do you use a steady anyway?

Cheers

Norman

[Ketan SwaliParticipant @ketanswali79440]

Posted by Donald Wittmann on 15/12/2012 16:02:16:

Ketan.

I have not formed an opinion on these machines [production ones] from a model engineering aspect I have formed my opinion through many years in a production setting [look at my profile for more info] Yes, unfotunately I have had to use a couple of Chinese lathes on occasion [ thankfully not often ] and form my opinion on that basis. You mention there are chinese machines that can take on the best in the world!!! well that I would like to see. Glidemeister, DMG Broadbent Stanley Mori Seiki and others, versus the best China can offer , no contest i'm afraid ,China man last every time.

Donald.

You are welcome to your opinion, based on your experience in what ever environment. In the same way, I am entitled to mine, which I base on fact from what I have seen over the years, since 1986, visiting restricted places as part of my business, some of which very few are previledged to see. These places have always surprised me. Like you, I never thought it was possible. Like you, even many Chinese and Indians still think that the sun ONLY shines out of the asses of certain foreign countries, not knowing that actually some of what they get is in fact made in their own country at some point!. How do you know if many of the companies you refer to do not sub-contract to these countries, where such sub-contractors come from the 'high-end' of such manufacturing operations, where plenty of non-disclosure agreements are signed?. That is all I can say.

Dont get me wrong, I am all for British Engineering and British Manufacturing, especially if the collective is prepared to pay the price. I still have confidence in the wheel which continues to turn in our (British) direction.

Ketan at ARC.

Edited By Ketan Swali on 15/12/2012 16:23:04

[Billy MillsParticipant @billymills]

Nigel B. If you read the first post RDG replaced the initial three bushes with four oversize ones. Cutting a key slot should not be beyond anyone reading these threads. Job done.

Billy.

[Ex contributorParticipant @mgnbuk]

Glidemeister, DMG Broadbent Stanley

The Gildemeister NEF710 at work was made by TOS in the Czech Republic.

Broadbent Stanley machines (and Parkson milling machines) are made in Taiwan. Both the Broadbent works in Mytholmroyd (about a mile and a half from RDG Tools place) and the Stanley works in Halifax have been housing estates for many years.

Harrison & Colchester manual machines have been variously made in China, Russia & Czech Republic for 10 years +, only CNC machines are made in Heckmondwike now.

Bridgeport machining centres are now made in Taiwan.

We have a Feeler CNC lathe at work made in Taiwan, but Feeler also have several factories in PRC, as do many Japanese MTBs – just because it has a name you may associate with a Japanese, European or Taiwanese builder does not mean you will not get a Chinese built machine.

I have bought 3 jaw chucks for work from both Chester and RDG – all have been made to a satisfactory standard for our requirements at very advantageous prices. Chester were able to supply soft jaws from stock for both of theirs (500 and 320 diameter, IIRC )when we needed them. RDG ER collets & Morse taper reamers likewise fine in an industrial environment.

But I will not buy Soba branded stuff again – too high a rejection rate. It ain't cheap if it don't work !

Regards,

Nigel B.

[Ketan SwaliParticipant @ketanswali79440]

Posted by jim both on 15/12/2012 15:55:33:

Others just let the end user do the quality control, i have just spent £3000 on a new lathe and found that i can't buy soft jaws for the chuck! in fairness i have been given a new chuck, but its a problem they are aware of (at least three different sizes of jaws are being used!!).

Good luck with that Jim. As far as I am aware, for Chinese lathe chucks, Chester are one of very few who will be able to offer you soft jaws for Chinese lathe chucks. I still cant get soft jaws sorted for Chinese chucks – for various reasons. I can get them easily for the Indian Zither chucks. Before anyone asks, they will not fit any other manufacturers chucks.

Ketan at ARC.

[BazyleParticipant @bazyle]

In response to Alan's point above I do think it unacceptable for an easily measured and checked aspect of the product that is also critical to its use to go unchallenged.

Is it ok if most Customers aren't complaining or is that taking advantage of people who from many posts on forums clearly buy a machine barely knowing what a screw is let alone a screwcutting lathe? Should those who know look out for them that don't?

[alan smith 6Participant @alansmith6]

Wow, the thread seems to have expanded into a east versus west sounding board.

I notice that I have had no replies regarding the minus 24 thou component so that I can safely say that nobody condones this kind of product.

It`s John again with his pile of gear blanks, I imagine that these are an order from Myford, so no wonder you are being disruptive to the thread. It`s your bread and butter on the line! Please inform us what tolerances you are working to on the 5/8 bores. i hope it`s not the same as the parts that I received! You have not answered the questions that I put to you, Why not?

Terry, do you think that a minus 20 thou on a gear bore diameter is ok? Lucky for RDG that they have customers like you. No metaphors OK.

The problem is that while I`m writing a post, 4or 5 others are in the pipeline, which sometimes makes what I am saying out out of context.

Nigel has made a very important point, we seem to be learning a lot from this thread.

Alan

Edited By alan smith 6 on 15/12/2012 16:48:07

Edited By alan smith 6 on 15/12/2012 16:49:48

[Ex contributorParticipant @mgnbuk]

Cutting a key slot should not be beyond anyone reading these threads.

The original Myford "bush" has a male key integral with the bush – I saw these being made at Myfords on one of their Open Days before "'elf'nsafety" stopped then offering tours of the factory. They were made on gear shapers with a special tool – shaving away the bush to leave the key standing proud. The picture on the RDG site for item 11954 ( the item doesn't have it's own page – hence no direct link) suggests that theirs is similarly made, though Alan's comment above suggests otherwise.

While many people may be able to cut a keyway, a "new starter" without vertical slide or milling machine & suitable tooling/tooholding/workholding capabilities may well not be able to. Likewise, I would not relish trying to manufacture this item in one piece as Myford did originally – I may be able to do so on the shaper using a rotary table, but I doubt it would be easy to do so and get the bush O/D and key width correct. A more likely method would be to silver solder a stepped key into a suitably keywayed sleeve, but that assumes silver soldering capabilities to accompany turning & milling.

If I am overlooking something obvious & you know of a more straight forward method, please share !

Regards,

Nigel B.

Edited for spelling

Edited By Nigel Barraclough on 15/12/2012 16:50:12

[Ketan SwaliParticipant @ketanswali79440]

Posted by Bazyle on 15/12/2012 16:35:45:

In response to Alan's point above I do think it unacceptable for an easily measured and checked aspect of the product that is also critical to its use to go unchallenged.

Is it ok if most Customers aren't complaining or is that taking advantage of people who from many posts on forums clearly buy a machine barely knowing what a screw is let alone a screwcutting lathe? Should those who know look out for them that don't?

You make a fair point Bazyle. Suppliers are human, just as much as customers. I dont know the product in question. Only RDG can reply Alan clearly for his complaint. At the same time, I would ask if it is fair to tar every supplier with one brush? Also, to what extent do you expect the supplier to look out for the customer who doesn't know? Fit for purpose also works both ways, and should not be used as a sweeping statement for all ailments without due consideration of facts.

Ketan at ARC.

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