Chester Super Lux advice

[Taf_PembsParticipant @taf_pembs]

Hi all, I’m new here and (as usual for newbies!) after a bit of advice if any of you are able to help.. well, I say advice it may well be that you reinforce my thinking that I may have made a mistake!

I’m down in sunny west wales, marine engineer but like messing about in the workshop with machine tools and making stuff.. that along with the Pembrokeshire law of ‘He who dies with most toys wins’ means I’ve been hunting for a milling machine for a fair while.

Couple of years ago I bought an old Mk1.5 Colchester Student lathe that had been battered and crashed but had little wear in it.. fully refurbished over about 6 months during covid, new bearings / bushes, gears dressed and re aligned etc and she now cuts as well as any student ever has done and is doing a bit of work.

Anyway, initially was looking at a Bridgeport type turret but not enough height in workshop.. would love a Schaublin 13 to referb but rare as hens teeth to find at sensible money. Tom Senior or Adock & Shipley do some relatively compact stuff I thought.. the usual suspects.

However.. A Chester Super Lux came up and I have noticed that when these do they disappear for decent money straight away so that coupled with its condition and near enough to go get so my thinking was if not suitable it will be easy to shift.. bought.

Size wise it will do everything I need but will need to invest in a power feed etc

First impressions.. fairly poor.

Gear head & motor unit.. way too heavy for the lead screw it sits on, doubt that will last long – any one had experience of this?

Impossible to adjust out much of the play in any of the 3 axis gibs without making it too stiff – Any suggestions?

Dam difficult to tram the head, too much slop in fixings when they are slackened off slightly to try to adjust and then once right tightening just moves everything way off again. Frustrating to say the least.

The main problem if anyone has any suggestions, is the table isn’t ‘flat’ or should I say is just about 1mm higher at the front that the back (in relation to the quill) so any cut will have some slope to it, particularly if fly cutting. Indicator on quill and move table in Y, the indicator stays at 0 for full travel. Swing indicator round in quill from front to back and its nearly 1mm higher at front suggesting the column is tilted forward.

I’ve not parted it yet and had a look, hoping to find a bit of sh.. in there but other than that I guess it is either shim the front of it or scrape the rear (not preferable!).

Or should I just keep hunting for 1 of the above to tidy up?

Cheers and sorry for the essay!

[Taf_PembsParticipant @taf_pembs]

[David George 1Participant @davidgeorge1]

Hi Taf I have downloaded the handbook and it looks like the colum is bolted go the base casting and I wondered if there is a problem there. Has it been strained moving it, are the bolts tight or has it been shimed in the past. I would start there. I may also suggest looking at the fittings between the headstock and column and head casting as there could be some damage there as well to the round T bolts and slot.

David

[Taf_PembsParticipant @taf_pembs]

Hi David, thanks for the suggestions, appreciate it!

If it were only a few thou I would have just put it down to poor tolerances but 30 odd thou triggered a couple of the grey cells to bump around a bit!

The base of the column was my first thought, checked bolts and they were good and there was nothing jumping out as being a bit kift.

Due to the difficulty in tramming the thing I think you may be in the ball park with the head mounting.. I'll fetch it to bits and see if there are any issues there.. might even be able to improve the system with a bit of fettling even if I don't find any issues there.

While its off it would be prudent to strip the column and check that.

There were no nasties done to the column while I was moving it, was quite careful there and I believe the previous owner bought it new and has really looked after it so it's not moved around much.

I'll see what time I get this week and I'll post what I find, might help someone else one day!

Cheers!

[Robert ButlerParticipant @robertbutler92161]

Taf I have a Super Lux and find it acceptable in most instances.

I fitted a Chester power feed which makes life easier and produces a better finish. Gibs, are the adjuster screw heads engaged in the slots correctly. Is there any crud under the table or dovetails? I have read somewhere that the Gibs can distort which can also cause the symptoms you describe, the cure was to machine the bow out of the strips.

The Gibs or crud may also produce the tramming error in spite of the weight of the table so perhaps investigate first which will hopefully leave the column undisturbed.

I found the backlash in X,Y and Z axis a bit irritating and whilst it is possible to adjust X and Y there is no provision for adjusting the Z Axes. I therefore fitted a Machine DRO covering all three axes, with the reader fitted to the quill. This has improved the functionality and accuracy of operation and as i tinker in metric and Imperial units a useful bonus. If you would like images of the Z axis installation send me a PM

Download the Grizzly manual far better than the Chester version.

Robert Butler

 

Edited By Robert Butler on 30/10/2022 22:34:30

Edited By Robert Butler on 30/10/2022 22:36:12

[Taf_PembsParticipant @taf_pembs]

Thanks Robert, I'll find the Grizzly manual, sure google will help out there!

Very good suggestions, I will check the gibs as you say..

When I've recovered from the expense of buying the thing I'll either buying or making a power feed for the x then next on the list then a DRO..

To be fair to the previous owner, there is barely a wear mark on any of the ways, and it was spotless – hardly any use by the looks of it.

I'll persevere and see where it goes.. I have to admit to making issues like this almost personal.. I WILL find it and sort it!

Bit like the lathe.. could not get consistent readings on the test bar setting the thing up.. turns out to be half thou 'wobble' in the lathe spindle nose and also in the MT3 adapter slug that fits it. Fit in the 1 perfect position and they would cancel each other but otherwise at the end of a 12" test bar it becomes a fair error… so I've built tool post grinder to dress and 'learn' the both of them back to true

[Robert ButlerParticipant @robertbutler92161]

Taf I have a link to a complete strip and rebuild of the head and hearbox, not that you will need it for this issue, but I printed it off for future reberence and you may care to do the same.

I fitted the DRO reader to the quill and this takes up little space and connects direstly to the three axis DRO screen. I used linear bearings to mount the reader and have some rough drawings which may be helpful. I can never manage to upload anything on to this site so if you send me a PM with your email address I can email them to you directly.

Robert

[David George 1Participant @davidgeorge1]

I have the smaller Chester 16VS mill which i have moded by fitting a ball screw Z axis with power feed and a M-DRO read out on three axis. These make a huge difference to my mill especially doing hole centers, boring deep bores and repeatable parts etc.

David

[Martin ConnellyParticipant @martinconnelly55370]

Even a small leadscrew can lift a tonne, I don't think the leadscrew will be undersized for the load it has to take. It may be likely that the mechanical advantage is not great so it feels like a lot of effort to raise the head but there is unlikely to be a mechanical failure. A lot of car jacks supplied with cars were/are based on a simple screw and are capable of raising one side of a car off the ground if you wanted to go that far.

Martin C

Manual for the Grizzly version of the super lux

 

Edited By Martin Connelly on 31/10/2022 08:23:25

[Colin HeseltineParticipant @colinheseltine48622]

I had a Chester Super Lux and in order to tram it correctly I ended up using Plastishim at the base of the pillar to square it all up. Fitted DRO on X and Y axis. Used it sparingly over next 10 or so years but not heavy use at all.

One day the motor just stopped. It turned out the centrifugal switch had a broken soldered joint. Fixed this and all was okay. About 6 weeks later I was drilling a sequence of holes, had done 5 of them and moved to the sixth. Powered up, the motor started but no movement of the spindle. No noise or anything. Lifted motor off to find the motor spindle had sheared flush with the gear in the top of the head.

Much as it grieved me I bought a new motor and promptly swapped it at my local machinery deals for a Gates PBM2000 (Bridgeport clone). Lot happier with this replacement machine.

Hope you get sorted.

Colin

[larry phelan 1Participant @larryphelan1]

Well Taf, at least you have got a few replies regarding your problem with your Lux Mill.

When I had a problem with my Lux Mill some time ago [still never solved it ], I received great help from Robart Butler, but strange to say, no one else seemed to have anything to offer. [ Thanks Robert ]

I never noticed any difficulty moving the head up or down, I just fitted a longer handle. Never checked the table- column for square, just assumed it was. Have never had any trouble with the gearbox [touch wood ! ]

That manual mentioned by Robert is well worth downloading, the Chester one is useless.

[Taf_PembsParticipant @taf_pembs]

Thanks all for the responses, all are greatly appreciated.

I've managed to get an hour or so free now so off to make some room and begin.

I'll update as best I can and get any pics where necessary, hopefully it will help anyone else that ever has an issue.

[Robert ButlerParticipant @robertbutler92161]

Posted by larry phelan 1 on 31/10/2022 14:39:03:

When I had a problem with my Lux Mill some time ago [still never solved it ], I received great help from Robart Butler, but strange to say, no one else seemed to have anything to offer. [ Thanks Robert ]

That manual mentioned by Robert is well worth downloading, the Chester one is useless.

Larry thank you for enhancing my reputation!! My view regarding the spare screws remains the same. Clearly they could not escape from the gearbox and therefore maybe left by an absent minded operator or fitter at Chester or the manufacturers.

Robert Butler

[larry phelan 1Participant @larryphelan1]

Hi Robert,

Yes, I think you are right about those screws, so I just put everything back together again. Still have a little tightness in the quill, but I,ll live with it. That return spring takes some effort to rewind, while just waiting to chop your fingers off ! I ended up making a clamp with a handle to wind it back. Works great, no more cut fingers.

All in all, it was time well spent, I now know the machine a lot better.

Regards and keep well.

[Robert ButlerParticipant @robertbutler92161]

Posted by larry phelan 1 on 01/11/2022 12:46:05:

Hi Robert,

Yes, I think you are right about those screws, so I just put everything back together again. Still have a little tightness in the quill, but I,ll live with it. That return spring takes some effort to rewind, while just waiting to chop your fingers off ! I ended up making a clamp with a handle to wind it back. Works great, no more cut fingers.

All in all, it was time well spent, I now know the machine a lot better.

Regards and keep well.

Larry, not sure if you have discovered the lubrication point at the rear of the quill in the gearbox casting. On my mill you have to remove the guard, microswitch linkage and a blanking panel you will then find a hole through which to squirt oil.

Robert

[MacolmParticipant @macolm]

The tapered gibs are probably similar to my mill/drill. One had about a millimetre backlash between the gib and adjuster, and surprisingly this was enough to nearly lock the table in one direction when it was correctly adjusted for the other. I fixed this with a washer that took this out the slack. Thereafter, if you are left with any tight spots, the gib can be filed, assuming you can work out where. Use a good single cut file to retain adequate surface finish. It does not need much removed.

[Taf_PembsParticipant @taf_pembs]

Evening all..!

Not had much time but have been able to take a few measurements.

Certainly a problem with the Z axis gib, after a bit more 'tidying up' cleaning and lubing etc the Z gib can be adjusted so far in that it is almost fully inserted and the opposing locking screw can not be fitted and the z axis still moves fine although this oddly made almost no difference to the problem with angle to table. I'll get some measurements when stripped and see if a replacement would fix this.. or maybe trim a wee bit off the bottom if it adjusts up correctly. There are still scraping marks on its running surface so I think either the gib is really worn or was just a poor size to begin with.

Managed to spend a bit of time fiddling about with indicators and mounts.. Put a 300mm square on the bed, indicator from the quill to it and moved Z up and down 240mm, same distance as table width. Spun square 180 deg – not that I don't trust it to be true or anything! – and the average (there was a very small discrepancy) showed a column tilt forward by 0.2mm over the 240mm so there is some of it. Not that bad really for what it is.

Start stripping next and see what else turns up.

Cheers!

[Robert ButlerParticipant @robertbutler92161]

Taf – Z Axis?

Robert Butler

[Taf_PembsParticipant @taf_pembs]

Evenin' !

Doing well this week, home a bit early so set to it..

Robert, the vertical slideway..

Knocked up a wooden frame and removed the head. You can clearly see that the lack of contact around the top third ish on both faces. I was a bit surprised that the head inner locating recess isn't a machined surface. I was expecting T bolts in the Z saddle but they are regular bolts. What I though felt like a small detent where the 0 angle was is just where the bolts have been tightened and marked the casting – no wonder adjusting was problematic.

On a side note, I contacted Chester to get an idea of a couple of costings.. shouldn't have bothered. The price of the gib (part numbered on all the other branded versions of this I've seen)?.. don't know, don't do them. Does the newer spindle that is R8 rather than MT3 fit this mill ?.. don't know .. how much is it anyway? don't know.. probably a few hundred quid. Ah well..

Pics of the faces..

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

On your side note:

I see that the term Box-Shifter is in the Oxford English Dictionary.

The encounter should encourage you in your work.

MichaelG.

[Taf_PembsParticipant @taf_pembs]

Michael ..

Well, I believe the first stage of success in fixing something is finding what's wrong.. Had some success!

Just had another hour or so fiddling and after an inordinate amount of blue I got a print onto the saddle form the head face. Not sure I really needed to as with the head horizontal and the saddle placed on the face, it could rock top to bottom.. non the less I blued.. then blued again and eventually got enough of a print to see what's what.

I really don't know how I'm going to measure what is out and by how far but using the best straight edge I have the deformation seems to only be in the head face.. disappointed in that as if it were the saddle I could take it to a place that would surface grind it flat. How I reference the flatness of the head face in relation to the quill is going to be interesting..

And the gib has a 2 thou bow in it..

Oh well.. best I try and wake the wee grey bits up top and see what I can come up with.

[Taf_PembsParticipant @taf_pembs]

Evenin all..

Had a bit of fiddling time. Column removed, not what I was expecting, either really badly made or deliberate.. Maybe someone could shed some light on this one?

The machine base column mounting surface is partly flat then tapers off towards the back, by a significant amount.

My thinking is either as said, vert badly made of deliberate so column angle can be adjusted forwards / backwards?

There was also a really thick chunk of red paint stuck under the front towards the left (circled in photo).

Either way, you can clearly see where there was some contact but not much.

[Taf_PembsParticipant @taf_pembs]

Had a quick look at the column saddle on the surface plate, aprox 0.2mm of rock across 2 corners, nothing that cant be sorted I suppose and the face is about 0.1 fatter side to side but I will go back to this once I've got rid of the 'wobble' in the way faces.

At least it is reasonably parallel for a budget machine!

Once that is sorted, plan is to make a frame / jig to support the head above the surface plate with the quill extended and then adjusted so the quill is in plane with the plate, use a precision level to get is as close as possible in the cross plane (not as critical really) then I can use the plate to check / change the mounting surface and hopefully get that back to true.

Does that sound reasonable or is there a better / easier way to reference to the 'vertical' plane of the quill?

Going to make some new head mounting bolts as they are such a poor fit, I want something with a better surface contact area in the 'T' slot and a reasonably snug fit through the holes not rattling about.

I've come to the conclusion that if I can get this right and true then it is a good learning curve before moving on to something a little more .. err …. challenging!

Cheers..!

Taf

[Taf_PembsParticipant @taf_pembs]

Oh.. decided to clean out the head (and make it lighter to lump around!).

Glad I did, there was some serious gunge in there. Almost like the sealer they used on the head top plate (resembles Hermatite Red) had also been liberally applied to the inside of the head for fun..

Oh well, it's only cleaning.. just a lot of it to get this stuff out, it certainly takes some dissolving!

She may as well have a set of bearings while I'm in there, they are the usual unbranded chinesium items and aren't the tightest or smoothest .. might make her a bit smoother running.

the gears look in pretty good shape, no real burrs, chips, wear etc.. all good.

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Sorry to say it, Taf … but:

That all looks like thoroughly sloppy work

The machine may, or may not, be suitable for its target market … but to me it looks like a kit from which you might be able to make something if they haven’t already “machined” the castings undersize.

If it was a small scale model, Jason could probably work wonders on it … but as a machine tool

MichaelG.

[Author]

Posts