British machine tools

[Ady1Participant @ady1]

The "upper echelons" of Britain have an awful lot of hubris

Well educated people who can get a Degree in Astrophysics… but they couldn't get an O-level in common-bluddy-sense

Now they've trashed British Industry the only decent jobs left for them are in the Government, Health, Education etc etc

…and we all know which way those sectors are heading…

[Steve WithnellParticipant @stevewithnell34426]

There is a tale of an interview (too many years ago now) with the Chief Exec of the Grand Metropolitan Group, he was asked what quality he prized most highly in his managers, to which he replied "common sense". The interviewer challenged the response suggesting other qualities such as intellect. The response – "that's good too, so long as it does not get in the way of common sense"

Steve

[Mike PooleParticipant @mikepoole82104]

The key to building a quality product is to use a highly skilled craftsman who is competant, cares what he is making and proud of it or to design the quality into the product and use manufacturing processes that a worker cannot get wrong. The Japanese developed many fool proofing systems to cope with an operator who was not at his best. Now we have vision systems checking parts are fitted before the next process is started also monitoring the application of sealer and adhesive by those robots that contrary to beleif do have off days and they really are stupid, more so than the biggest muppet you ever met. The holy grail is to make every part right first time, but in real life you must monitor the process to stop and correct when out of tolerance and be able to track back to the last good check. These systems do work but an outrageous set of circumstances will always occur to defeat you, so you create another check!

For those who still like to have a pop at the Marina, it was built in the same plant as the Rolls Royce body shell and the Marina was a far more accurately made body. I do not think its contempories were any better, Ford, Vauxhall and Rootes have all but disappeared from the Uk but the Mini is still made in the same plant the Marina was made in.

Mike

[Roderick JenkinsParticipant @roderickjenkins93242]

Posted by Ady1 on 10/08/2014 12:37:35:

The "upper echelons" of Britain have an awful lot of hubris

Well educated people who can get a Degree in Astrophysics… but they couldn't get an O-level in common-bluddy-sense

I'm afraid I take issue with that. It's not the astrophysics that's the problem, that at least has some understanding of the physical world. It's the managers whose background is purely financial or political who seem to move from one industry they don't understand to another that they don't understand – moving on before they are found out. There seems to be a political view that managing the NHS is the same as managing BAE which is the same as managing M&S. The upper echelons of the German company I referred to are all professional engineers.

Anyway, relax, it's Sunday

Rod

[Bob Brown 1Participant @bobbrown1]

"I really do pity the people who think that buying old British scrap iron"

There are some British built machines that may well fit that category but certainly not all, some still have a great deal of life in them and will probably still be producing swarf many many years from now, you just have to be more selective and inspect the kit before purchase.

My 5" metric Boxford is one such machine and cost £500.00 10 years ago, less than a far eastern machine of similar size and is probably now worth more than I paid for it. It's a bit like buying a second hand car you just need to be careful and if you know very little about cars or machine tools take someone who does to look at it.

One should not try to tar the whole ship with the same brush.

Bob

[Roderick JenkinsParticipant @roderickjenkins93242]

Bogs, I couldn't agree more. I'm very happy with my S7, which I've had for 30+ years but If I were starting now I'd be straight down to Warco. However, those 30 odd years ago the economy mill/drill I had was pretty dreadful and I got rid of that for a Sharp, which was £2000 then

Rod

Edited By Roderick Jenkins on 10/08/2014 15:17:33

[JonParticipant @jon]

Posted by Roderick Jenkins on 09/08/2014 21:15:56

It would only encourage them to make sub-standard goods that have no export market,

I don't agree, either, that when it's gone it's gone. These things are cyclic, as Neil has said. There have been items on the news fairly recently of clothing manufacture moving back to the UK, largely as a result of high shipping costs. Rod

Have you seen what JLR are doing? China cant get enough brought about by us fuelling their economy rather than supporting our own or Europeans when had a choice.

Loose the industry you loose the know how in some sectors that cannot ever be gained back. Not talking two a penny clothing, car making and such like.

A major set back to any British company setting up in UK is insurance, most cant get it or charged so much money for old ropes. Considering most surveys and the like don't even have an option for manufacturing or proper engineering with the way Britain has become with H&S garbage.

The other way of looking at buying cheap chinese is buy three times before the British, European or US made one packs up. That's false economy John been there done it. Tried getting parts for your Chinese made tools, if eventually available as in months a simple motor job can cost 1/3 the cost of a whole machine, another false economy.

[Phil WhitleyParticipant @philwhitley94135]

I agree absolutely bob, and at least when "something drastic" happens, you have got something that is worth repairing, I have yet to see anything from china/taiwan/far east that can hold a candle anywhere near a British machine for accuracy and build quality. Myfords always were overpriced, and over rated anyway ( asbestos undies firmly on). A good man on a Boxford can make just the same parts, and have a LOT of change to spend on tooling! Harrison are still plentiful, and I don't see any shortage of Colchesters either. You can do small work on a bigger lathe far easier than you can do big work on a small lathe. Having made all these inflammatory comments I will miss the "war" as I am now going to spend the next week at the green man festival in wet Welsh Wales, which will include a trip into Abergavenny on the wednesday for the Awesome fleamarket in the market hall.There is a tool stall or three, the quality is good, and the prices too!, be back next Monday with trench foot and rising damp up ter me knees! Remember the old adage, " if you build it right, its not cheap, if you build it cheap, it's not right. The rain has stopped, and I going to load my trailer.

Phil

[Russell EberhardtParticipant @russelleberhardt48058]

Posted by Phil Whitley on 09/08/2014 20:44:55:

It is noticeable that DS&G, who built "nowt but lathes" and always were top quality, are still in business.

Are they still trading? If you do a company search for them you find that the company has been dissolved.

Russell.

[Bob Brown 1Participant @bobbrown1]

**LINK** ??

[Russell EberhardtParticipant @russelleberhardt48058]

Posted by Roderick Jenkins on 10/08/2014 14:07:04:

I'm afraid I take issue with that. It's not the astrophysics that's the problem, that at least has some understanding of the physical world. It's the managers whose background is purely financial or political who seem to move from one industry they don't understand to another that they don't understand – moving on before they are found out.

I couldn't agree more Rod. Businesses managed by bean counters who learn simple arithmetic and think they are mathematicians tend to ignore the advice of their engineers. Accountants should provide a service to the company – not control it!

Russell.

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by Russell Eberhardt on 10/08/2014 15:59:26:

Are they still trading? If you do a company search for them you find that the company has been dissolved.

.

Russell,

Take a look here, for Dean Smith & Grace

There has obviously been some restructuring … but that's nothing unusual.

MichaelG.

[mike mcdermidParticipant @mikemcdermid41977]

Granted a DS&G from pre war Britain will still be some use, or so big industry has a demand for them i can see now how oil country lathes are keeping that company alive

But as hobbiests there's nothing left for you it is literally becoming scrap iron you have to laugh when you see machinery dealers asking 3k for a clapped out chipmaster or harrison m300 ,When I worked in heckmondwike there used to be beds sat at the back of Morrisons seasoning for 10 years before they were ground and scraped in ,in the 90s beds were cast in china they were shit, they came off the boat and got ground i could tell you stories of how they would be ground and twisted by the next day but by then the writing was on wall ,the Bean counters couldn't give a damn (and the men doing the job didn't either ,their pride in workmanship had been removed by managements attitude of "your lucky to be working&quot unless the books were balanced

A late model harrison is literally a bag of shit ,an early one most likely worn to within an inch of its life if wasnt sold to a school and then we all love a school machine thats been underused but crashed 50 times

, i agree with Bogs disposable society means you will hear people sucjh as on here lament the death of what they knew but things move on, if we buy an 80k CNC machining centre we are quite safe in the knowledge its going to have a useful life of 5 years before its done its work they are disposable items ,then get passed on to the hobbiest whos just happy to have CNC capability

I bought a Boxford 280 nearly new about 2 years ago ,theres already wear in it and play that shouldn't really be considering its used for odd jobs, 2 years old ,as far as quality, i would have been no worse buying from Chester or Warco and buying new every 2-3 years

One day someone will bring back manufacturing machine tools at the hobbiest level or at least a serious level after all the cost of these things goes up yearly I recall when a 25lv mill was 700 quid they are touching 1k now we already proved we can compete with the taiwanese in some markets when we reshored our companies manufacturing but it still remains if the market will pay the price afterall you can buy anything pretty much cheaper

[Roderick JenkinsParticipant @roderickjenkins93242]

Posted by mike mcdermid on 10/08/2014 16:54:59:

One day someone will bring back manufacturing machine tools at the hobbiest level or at least a serious level after all the cost of these things goes up yearly I recall when a 25lv mill was 700 quid they are touching 1k now we already proved we can compete with the taiwanese in some markets when we reshored our companies manufacturing but it still remains if the market will pay the price afterall you can buy anything pretty much cheaper

I doubt it. I don't suppose the guy making Cowells is raking in a vast profit (and they cost near enough as much as a Myford was at the end). The main hobby lathe market is probably in the US. I can't imagine that we will end up exporting there (unless we become a third world economy ).

Rod

[Nick Clarke 1Participant @nickclarke1]

No one seems to have mentioned, (unless I have missed it) RDG tools in Mytholmroyd, who now own the Myford name, and all the remaining Myford stock, their website shows brand new machines and picture galleries of gearboxes being manufactured. I have recently bought a late model Speed 10, in perfect condition with a load of new accessories for a grand, and am over the moon with it, no comparison when put against my mates Chester machine.

**LINK**

[Mike PooleParticipant @mikepoole82104]

RDG seem to have stalled after an initial enthusiasm the pictures have been on display for many months now with no change. John Bloor who brought Triumph back to life invested many millions in the design of an up to date range of motorcycles and leading edge manufacturing equipment and processes. The Myford post war lathes took a leap forward compared to the pre war offerings of Myford and other manufacturers of that type of lathe. If a market is out there for high quality small lathe it is probably time to go back to the drawing board and design a lathe for the 21st century. As a large number of the jobs tacled on a myford were too big for the lathe it would perhaps make sense to make a 41/2" or 5" lathe. As most hobbyists have a milling machine of some sort maybe the wide range of accessories offered for the myford could be dropped. But design in easy fitting of a DRO or CNC which are aspired to by many especially the next generation. A simple upgrade kit for a DRO endorsed by the manufacturer or a simple replacement of ballscrews for CNC and ready made locations for stepping motors or servos and encoders would perhaps be attractive to the modern lathe buyer. Boxford chased the market for educational CNC but all but abandoned the manual home user. Maybe there is a market for a machine to cover these niches.

Mike

[JonParticipant @jon]

I would agree with that Mike but Triumph are competing on level terms with other manufacturers in quality machines and doing well. Certain models use good Kawasaki imported engines though they do make their own as well.

Daytona around £9300, Hyosung GT650 £3600 loosing two thirds value within 12 months. **LINK**# against **LINK**

To my knowledge theres no quality new manual machinery available as there was 20/30 years ago and what would the price be £10k against an import £1500.

Looking on their site ML7 £8K who in their right mind would fork out for that when could have a good machine such as an almost mint ML300 from a dealers at an inflated price of £4k. Paid £850 for mine 4 years ago and would be on my 3rd import by now at over £3.5k a throw.

To give you some idea of the price hiking was looking at one of these in 2000 when needed a replacement lathe pronto at £1300. My wages hasn't increased since then but look at todays price £2248 as it was two years ago **LINK** Crusader was £1850, CUB £2300 with indifferent spindle nose. Draw your own conclusions why the machines have almost doubled in price. In the paid over the odds £900 for a Harrison 140, needed pronto and made last 10 years before scrapping it.

What the cheap imports have done is allow the diy/hobbiest modern looks at an affordable price. A proper engineering company would only buy a robust machine that would last. Downtime costs money especially when cant get the parts and if are available get ripped off ie RF25 from MM was £650 new, within 12 months new motor £256. Likewise Super Lux paid £930, transfer box (just the gears for elevated head) £244 four years ago when machine was still £1500.

If I could power it I would have a 50" British made Triumph tomorrow. Used to do small work more suited to toy lathes on two of these. One sold three months ago for £300, beds good as was everything else.

[Mike PooleParticipant @mikepoole82104]

I think it is an urban myth about Triumph using Kawasaki parts. John Bloor was wise to drop all the old Triumph models and just keep the best bit which was the name. Myford developed the 254 but the price was way out of reach of most hobby buyers and the asian manufacturers already had their foot well inside the door. Maybe an affordable British made machine is just a dream. Triumph identified markets around the world before they started work. A new British lathe would need to think globally, after all that is what the competition are doing.

Mike

Edited By Michael Poole on 10/08/2014 22:49:08

[Russ BParticipant @russb]

My personal opinion and more of a sensible conclusion to my earlier rant on this hot topic,

British engineering AND manufacturing is currently finding its way deep in to reliability critical areas, we're responsible for some of the most critical subsea gas and oil equipment where failure is not an option, add to that our involvement in industrial valves, mechanical and pneumatic handling, pelleting, solid (bio) injection systems, manufacturing for UK & US defence ,

It's all big business, its wealthy business and it's ensuring we spend less time doing smaller stuff these days (machine tools, especially small affordable stuff sadly) and more time raking in the 7/8/9 figure bespoke jobs around the world, usually, designing and consulting and not actually manufacturing unless it's really reliability critical.

I think the end result is, we can't afford our own quality, and we're looking way down on what's been offered to us – a good thing surely??

[Chris TriceParticipant @christrice43267]

The simple fact is that an Asian or Indian machine can always undercut a British made one because the labour cost is cheaper. It’s impossible to compete on price if your costs are higher, end of. With respect to the definition of the word literally, you’ll find a late Colchester is NOT literally a bag of shit.

[mike mcdermidParticipant @mikemcdermid41977]

 

 

Posted by Chris Trice on 11/08/2014 03:45:45:
end of. With respect to the definition of the word literally, you'll find a late Colchester is NOT literally a bag of shit.

I think if you were actually sat in the pub we used to go in (the little george on moor end lane)and actually worked in the place that made them your view would be more accurate than it is

even by their own admission the board tried to pull a PR stunt by saying we hold our hands up ,it was a mistake going to china

Edited By mike mcdermid on 11/08/2014 18:57:43

[jason udallParticipant @jasonudall57142]

Consider the markets of say 100 , 50 , 20, 10, and now.

100 years ago expanding market ( empire)…orders for as many as you can make…quality /reputation sells ..in effect no competition so quality ensures next sale…
Spool forward 50 years…other companies ( countries ) in competition. .price sensitive and competing with your own product still going strong…
Spool forward 30 years.
Still competing with all your own prior production but now the competition is producing much cheaper stuff not so long lasting maybe but good enough …
Skip forward to today. ..you make the same as the competition ( even rebadging where posible). And take your chances…

Some Companies 10 years ago moved production to china or other far east asia to cutt costs…some also cut prices but most just took the profit and laughed at the customer

It is now, that the plant set up to make this product is making competing product ( sometimes just on different shifts)…
When say the m &r micrometer is made on the same line as the mitatoyu. .as the noname….There might be no detectable difference esp if bought online…but can m&r etal still charge more?
Or cry if they are in effect competing with themselves

Edited By jason udall on 11/08/2014 19:23:32

[JAParticipant @ja]

Just a little tale I was told on a lathe manufacturer's trade stand when enquiring about collets. Their collets were made by a small firm in the south of England that owned and operated from a small fine mill building. One day a developer came along and offered them a lot of money for the building, far more than they made from making bits. The owner sold out, took the money and the mill building was now an up-market block of flats. Everybody was happy!

JA

Edited By JA on 11/08/2014 19:51:21

[John CoatesParticipant @johncoates48577]

what a wonderful eclectic post

I'm waiting to finish the workshop so my Marantz can go in there so I can listen to my LPs again whilst hobby engineering away, will be great to get the Led Zep, Floyd and Cream spinning again

on the quality front I studied this for my masters degree and the Japanese learnt quality control from Deming after the war then took it to new levels by marrying their love of individual skill with companies run by engineers not "professional" managers, all the senior managers were engineers and understood the manufacturing process

when they wanted to develop the video recorder the Japanese companies go together to agree a technical specification which they would all use then they would compete on quality and enhancements

as regards machinery I bought an old British lathe and after some five years since doing that have realised it has some accuracy issues especially a worn tailstock which I haven't helped by breaking the clamp!

looking at the prices of Warco etc it seems I will be saving up for quite a while to buy one of these "cheap" Far Eastern machines

John

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by John Coates on 11/08/2014 21:14:37:

… when they wanted to develop the video recorder the Japanese companies go together to agree a technical specification which they would all use then they would compete on quality and enhancements

.

That would be all of them except Sony

… remember Betamax ???

MichaelG.

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