Boxford Cud or ML7

[Andrew TinsleyParticipant @andrewtinsley63637]

Lots of good and bad advice here. The REALLY important factor is the condition of the lathe and a lesser one being price.

I would rather have an ML10 in good nick than a clapped out Boxford and vice versa. I have a 9 x 20 Chinese lathe much modified by myself a good ML7  and an excellent ML10. If a good Boxford came along at an affordable price I would buy it.

Forget VFDs, bull wheel tooth count, headstock bore etc, etc.

CONDITION IS EVERYTHING!

Andrew.

 

 

 

 

[Howard LewisParticipant @howardlewis46836]

My well used ML7 had back gear, and the alloy dials were replaced by resettable ones, when the longer cross slide was fitted.

I did not find it sufficiently rigid for milling, using a vertical slide, so bought a Warco Economy mill (The largest that would fit in the then current workshop)

Eventually, on retiring, sold the ML7 and upgraded to a larger and more rigid generic Taiwanese lathe, which has been use since.

Faced with your choice, although I’ve never used one, would plump for a Boxford, probably as extensively equipped as possible, AUD

Howard

 

 

[bernard towersParticipant @bernardtowers37738]

All the series 7s and 10s have back gears and resettable dials are a doddle

[Howard LewisParticipant @howardlewis46836]

If you look in Beginners Questions, there is a Boxford(Don’t know which one, or what is with it) looking for a new home.

Howard

[Robert Atkinson 2Participant @robertatkinson2]

The ML7 most certainly DOES have a backgear. It does not have settable dials as standard but may have been upgraded.The VFD is essential if the lathe comes with a 3 pahse motor and you don’t have 3 phase supply. It adds other benefit.

Robert.

[BazyleParticipant @bazyle]

Myfords do have Backgear. You’re thinking of a lot of the recent minilathes with variable speed instead of belt changes and gears.
The Boxfords come in 3 flavours of dial. Early ones copied the SouthBend with ones barely and inch dia, also on some of the simpler school ones I think, My 1952 model had progressed to about 1 1/4 in and the newest were finally getting sensible towards 2 in. However the size is less significant rather than the fact that they are cylinders not sloping. So it is trivial to make a larger plastic dial that fits over (nowadays 3D printed).

Myfords rarely come with a 3phase motor because they were intended for the home market. Boxfords more often did if they were used in schools however as most of the school stock has already been sold to amateurs the motor will either be swapped already or packaged with a VFD. Note the older 3ph motors tend not to have accessible star points for conversion although people on here will say they easily found them they were just lucky.

[Pete RimmerParticipant @peterimmer30576]

Given that the machines in question are both quite old models I would look at it from a perspective of wear. Given otherwise identical-condition machines the Boxford wins hands down for me because the prismatic way can suffer considerable wear without seriously affecting the basic operation of the machine. As the vees wear the saddle just settles lower into the vee but still keeps pointing in the right direction. A square way in comparison does not have to wear much at all on the front and rear shears before it gets difficult then later becomes impossible to adjust out the movement up at the headstock without making it very tight at the tailstock end.

[southernchapParticipant @southernchap]

One other alternative might be to consider Taiwanese lathes of late 1980s, 1990s vintage.

Warco sold a fair few of these.  They tend to be a bit better manufactured/QC’d than the modern Chinese equivalents.  I have recently acquired (at a very keen price; it was well cared for, but filthier than a Tory MP’s mind) a Warco 918 from 1994 and it’s surprisingly capable (even more so when I get round to adding a tumble reverse for the leadscrew).

To be fair to our Chinese “friends” Warco also sold some rather good Chinese lathes.  The GH550 or the GH660 are lathes that do come up on eBay from time to time.

As for the Boxford vs Myford question, Myford lathes on the used market are overpriced (driven it seems by foolish old men, or their greedy descendants, who think the Myford name will garner them more moolah).  Oddly there always seem to be a fair few Boxford C models wildly overpriced given the state of the lathes (cosmetically at least; rusty chucks, traps full of chips, dear God alive, do none of these sellers even consider giving the thing they’re asking over a grand for a quick wipe over and a flap with a brush?!).  B models are vanishingly rare.  The A models oddly do seem to be sensibly priced and often appear to generally in better condition.

I myself have only a few hours play on a Boxford A and an ML7 but the experience of using the well-cared-for, but tatty Boxford A, left the virtually pristine ML7 in the dust.

[southernchap]

On southernchap Said:

…As for the Boxford vs Myford question, Myford lathes on the used market are overpriced (driven it seems by foolish old men, or their greedy descendants, who think the Myford name will garner them more moolah).

Mostly the other way round I think, naive buyers relying on the name and what’s on offer being reassuringly expensive!

For about 40 years Myford held pole position in the hobby market due to a good combination of size, features, ergonomics and affordability.   When it first appeared the ML7 dropped a bomb on all other affordable lathes, many of which were comparatively simplistic, crude and over-priced.  Then the even more versatile Super 7 arrived!   In short, for many years the simple answer to “what hobby lathe?” was “Myford”.   Ideally a Super 7, but a ML7 was good too, and even the down-to-a-price ML10 is reasonable.   (Myford’s best lathe, the 254, is rarely recommended – too expensive for hobbyists!)

Nowadays though Myford don’t hold pole position, folk memory lingers!  And there’s something about the psychology of age that causes old chaps to believe everything made in yesteryear was top quality whilst everything modern has gone to the dogs.  I respectfully submit this is an illusion.

Anyway, we’re left with a mythos that Myford is the right answer, strong enough for people to ignore condition when the Myford brand does not magically protect against historic wear and tear.  In truth, a clapped out Myford is no better than any other lathe!

Myford lost pole position due to stiff competition from other lathes, and in the end the firm was crushed between two changes:

• Modern (1950’s) lathe designs can be made more cheaply than Myford’s more traditional layout.  Whist early Far Eastern examples were often ‘too cheap’, these days they are better made and delightfully affordable.  Lots of choice!  Not just lathes in many sizes, but milling machines and other goodies too.   These tools appeal to many purchasers.
• CNC caused industry to dump large numbers of manual machine tools in good condition into the second-hand market.  When new these machines were too costly for hobby use, at least twice the price of a Myford, so they were never recommended.   Forget that!  Now hobbyists can afford them.

Bottom line: in 2025 the answer isn’t automatically “Myford”

Oddly there always seem to be a fair few Boxford C models wildly overpriced given the state of the lathes (cosmetically at least; rusty chucks, traps full of chips, dear God alive, do none of these sellers even consider giving the thing they’re asking over a grand for a quick wipe over and a flap with a brush?!)…

I think this another example of time marching on.  For about 30 years smart hobbyists have been taking advantage of cheap industrial lathes made redundant by CNC, but this source must be drying up.  And availability is falling because industrial lathes aren’t immune to wear and tear either.   Supply and demand: most manufacturers got rid of their manual machines decades ago, with educational establishments following suit much later.   In 1950s Britain there must have been hundreds of thousands of manual lathes beavering away, now almost all gone.  Last time I looked, I got the impression that ex-industry manual machine prices are rising.

My view is that simply advising people to buy Myford based on past experience has become unhelpful.   Beginners should focus more on condition, what the lathe is for, value for money, and what happens if they buy a lemon!   Not the brand!   Simply rushing to buy other than Myford isn’t the answer, for example, a lot of bother results from buying ex-industrial if the machine needs an industrial power supply!  And though ex-industrial lathes are cheap, watch out! spares will be full price and maybe unaffordable.

Dave

[Nigel McBurney 1Participant @nigelmcburney1]

At my first job as a scientific instrument maker Appprenticeship plus one further year, there was a 4.5 c/h Boxford  which was in use for up to 40 hours most weeks, excellent machine, power feed was rarely used the engagement knob was not easy to use,I heard later that it took 20 years of use before the bed was reconditioned, Later on I had a good job and wanted to build an Allchin.I bought a new ML7 ,two reasons for this purchase  one price the other capacity as I had heard that the Allchins wheels at 9 inch diameter may not be easy to machine on a Boxford and the Myford had a greater swing, at 10 ins, so a Myford it was. later on I bought a Super 7 which is now 51 years old ,one advantage was that all theML7  accessories would fit on the new Super 7. I had no problems milling the Allchin parts both lathes, a good apprenticeship no doubt helped.The works Boxford was of course 3 phase, my Myford had a good English built single phase motor and found that there are no problems with single phase , I found that both types of motors performed well and no one ever complained  about rough running way back in the 1950/60s perhaps foreign motors are the problem. My main issue with a Myford is small 9/16 spindle bore, which became  a pain in the backside doing work on trials motor cycles and old stationary engines. Though generally the design of the Myford was well thought out and good value.I think Boxfords move to 5 inch centre height was a good idea,I would not worry about weight any thing can be moved with a bit of thought and ingenuity Fifty years later with used machines that no modeller could have afforded 60 years ago,I have often thought what would I do now if I had to start again, my choice would be a Colchester Bantam with its larger spindle and bore size. the space required is not much larger ,far better machine.I currently have the S7 now fifty years old and a long bed Colchester gap bed Master 2500 which is a super machine. Now if it still is a choice between Box ford and Myford I would go for Boxford 5 inch centre height and a small milling machine as these two can be cheaper than a good Myford. And if you also need a drilling machine get one with at least a 2 or 3 morse spindle.

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

An excellent summary, Nigel

I still remember the joy on my Dad’s face when, having got his new job in 1966, he was allowed to order a brand new 2500 long-bed.

MichaelG.

[not done it yetParticipant @notdoneityet]

I agree with Nigel – except his comment about the single phase motor.

This is based on the fact that single phase Raglans of that era had a peculiar problem with vibration within the variable speed drive at lower speeds – when it would not run perfectly.  The regular, routine cure was to add an extra load to the supply circuit which miraculously removed the vibration problem.  There was never any such problem with the machines fitted with three phase motors.

I have never used a single phase motor on my Raglans, but I do have a Centec mill on a factory stand.  These are often reported, on forums, that the stand needs extra stiffening to avoid annoyingly loud vibrational emisdions from the stand.  Again, I fitted a 3 phase motor to mine, so no experience with a single phase motor fitted.

Those reports lead me to the conclusion that while a single phase motor may be acceptable (I assume myford mounted their motor with ‘resilient’ mountings to avoid/reduce any 50Hz, + harmonics, vibrations) to users, there is an inherent improvement by using a 3 phase motor.

Hope that clearly explains it.

[Robert Atkinson 2Participant @robertatkinson2]

I second NDIY’s comment. Single phase induction motors have at least two significant issues compared to 3 phase. First is torque ripple. This is a variation in avalable torque during a single rotation of the motor. It results in a small speed variation in the load with associated noise, vibration and possibly poor surface finish. The “resilient” mounts used on many single phase motor are to reduce torque ripple, not isolate vibration. Note that they are coaxial with the output shaft. This allows the body of the motor to rotate with variations in torque if the intertia of the load is high enough. This is a form of torsional inertial damping.

The other issue is poor starting performance and/or limited starting duty cycle rating. This is why the Super 7 has a clutch.

Until you put a 3 phase motor on a machine you have been used to running on a single phase it’s had to appreciate the difference.

Robert

[howardbParticipant @howardb]

“Until you put a 3 phase motor on a machine you have been used to running on a single phase it’s ha(r)d to appreciate the difference”

What difference would I experience, by changing from a a single phase motor to a three phase motor?

[howardb]

On howardb Said:

“Until you put a 3 phase motor on a machine you have been used to running on a single phase it’s ha(r)d to appreciate the difference”

What difference would I experience, by changing from a a single phase motor to a three phase motor?

… The sort of difference that you experience by changing to a car with a six-cylinder engine.

MichaelG.

[Robert Atkinson 2Participant @robertatkinson2]

As MichaelG alludes to, significantly lower noise and vibration levels. A lathe with layshaft and gearing is particuarly sensitive to torque ripple. All those rotating parts constantly changing speed during a revoution. Also similar to changing an angled drive shaft joint from a simple universal joint to a constant velocity joint. If a VFD is incuded you have variable speed and controlled speed ramp up and down.

Robert.

[Nicholas FarrParticipant @nicholasfarr14254]

Hi, so what type/make, and price inverter, can one put on a Boxford lathe without to much work?

Regards Nick.

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

I’m sure you will get lots of other suggestions, Nick … but [before my life went to pieces] I bought a small ABB unit [ACS150-01E-02A4-2] from these people:

https://www.quantum-controls.co.uk/variable-speed-drive/abb/

A very ‘professional’ business, in every respect, and the price was decent enough.

They would be my first port-of-call

MichaelG

[Howard LewisParticipant @howardlewis46836]

Sadly, nature being what it is, a single phase motor does not run quite as smoothly as a three phase, As Michael says like the difference between a four cylinder engine and six.

Single phase motors are usually resiliently mounted, for this reason.

Often you will see advice that a 3/4 hp single phase motor can be replaced by a 1/2 hp three phase (Assuming that some form of three phase power is available;often an inverter Variable Frequency Drive to give variable speed)

A 2 hp single phase motor was specified for my lathe, but the 1.5 hp three phase, with VFD, actually fitted, has been never short of power, at any speed.

Howard

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