Arbor Press Question

[Richard Harris 5Participant @richardharris5]

I have zero experience with this so I was hoping for some insight if you have a moment!

 

I am a hobbyist bladesmith and bought a touchmark last year to put my "stamp of approval" on anything I made for friends. (My actual work is a photographer, so not putting my name on stuff I've slaved over felt unnatural).

 

The touchmark is a 25mm square bar of O1 (hardened), with simple initials on it. It's perhaps a bit on the large size for a touchmark but doesn't look out of place.

 

The trouble for me is consistency. I am whacking it with a 1.5KG hammer when red hot and I have got good results, but also not so good results. I've done a lot of testing and It's just real tough to get even pressure and a good imprint with this. For the one project I've used it on for my friend, the end result was perfect but there is a lot of hit and miss…

 

I'm wondering if I could introduce some sort of arbor press to help even out the pressure and make it repeatable (and a hell of a lot easier!). Holding it all whilst the steel is red hot and giving it a whack isn't too easy for me…

 

Would something like this work? https://www.axminster.co.uk/axminster-ap1-arbor-press-340042

 

I have no idea what sort of force is required for this to work, hence why I'm asking! Spending as little as possible would be ideal, as I don't really have much use for press otherwise.

 

I should add, it really does need to be a good, deep stamp because after this operation I need to go back and straighten, and do the heat treatment process, all of which usually involves scaling to some degree. (So if it's too light, it can almost come off just through the scale!)

Edited By Richard Harris 5 on 23/03/2018 15:43:04

[Richard Harris 5Participant @richardharris5]

[Anonymous]

You'd probably be better off with a flypress. It will apply a lot of force in short order simply by swinging the handle. And you can set the depth, so no chance of going too deep if the work is softer than expected. A simple jig to hold the work will ensure consistent location.

I don't know if flypresses are still made, probably not, but they are on Ebay. If I recall correctly I paid £60 for my #3 flypress.

Andrew

[Brian WoodParticipant @brianwood45127]

Richard and Andrew,

I imagine they are still made, being such useful things, but they also appear fairly often at the internet machine disposal sales. Usually the photographs are better quality than ebay versions to guide you on condition, but there is nothing else offered to help you.

Be aware though that they are heavy things and as a buyer you are expected to clear your lot by a date pretty soon after the sale closes. There are other things to note about these sales. First you have to register and be accepted before you can bid, VAT usually applies to all lots and to the buyers premium, which is 16% and those items alone will take the total price to pay to about 38% above the hammer price.

And be aware too that the 10 minute rule applies at these auctions which allows a bid to be placed within the final 10 minutes of the sale and steal away what you thought might be yours and such last minute bids can continue well beyond the closing time for the sale—it makes something of a mockery of the stated closing time with overtime bidding like this

But, you might find a decent looking one that no-one else is showing interest in and come away with a bargain

1st Machinery Auctions and Apex Auctions are probably the better known sites and there is a sale of this kind up at Middlesbrough running now which includes a fly press. I'll add the details in another posting, if I move away from this now it will all disappear and I'll have to start again

Regards

Brian

[Tractor manParticipant @tractorman]

Hi Richard. I too make knives but mainly miniatures. Drop me a pm if you want to chat and compare notes.
Best regards Mick

[Brian WoodParticipant @brianwood45127]

Following on from when I left off, the sale is being run by Bid Spotter, it ends 27th March at 12.29 BST and the fly press[Lot 90] is a Dendigh #3, currently standing at £55 after 6 bids. Bid increments are £5

This might not be a bargain but it gives a clue as to current values, from my experience of these sales this lot might get up to £120 or so which will cost the new owner # £170.

Regards

Brian

[Richard Harris 5Participant @richardharris5]

Posted by Andrew Johnston on 23/03/2018 15:52:33:

You'd probably be better off with a flypress. It will apply a lot of force in short order simply by swinging the handle. And you can set the depth, so no chance of going too deep if the work is softer than expected. A simple jig to hold the work will ensure consistent location.

I don't know if flypresses are still made, probably not, but they are on Ebay. If I recall correctly I paid £60 for my #3 flypress.

Andrew

Thanks Andrew. I hadn't seen these before. Having a look around they can be found for a similar sort of price so will definitely be an option, if I can find one nearby.

I'd only wonder how easy it would be to adapt it to fit exactly the 25mm touchmark.

[Richard Harris 5Participant @richardharris5]

Posted by Brian Wood on 23/03/2018 19:12:43:

Following on from when I left off, the sale is being run by Bid Spotter, it ends 27th March at 12.29 BST and the fly press[Lot 90] is a Dendigh #3, currently standing at £55 after 6 bids. Bid increments are £5

This might not be a bargain but it gives a clue as to current values, from my experience of these sales this lot might get up to £120 or so which will cost the new owner # £170.

Regards

Brian

Thanks Brian. I'll keep an eye out for this as well. From what I can see they are reasonably common on ebay as well.

[colin hawesParticipant @colinhawes85982]

A flypress would definitely suit your application better but you need to determine the right size. Colin

[VicParticipant @vic]

You might find other uses for it if you get the right size flypress Richard.

**LINK**

[Nick HulmeParticipant @nickhulme30114]

It's really sad to see a fly press without it's original iron balls!

Those guys seem blissfully unaware that the fly press arm should be re-positioned for best access for a good swing for the current stage of the job.

[John ReeseParticipant @johnreese12848]

Have you considered building a simple device to guide the punch when it is struck? The important thing is that the punch Be presented to the work at a consistent angle. It is also important to prevent the punch from tilting when it is struck. Try making up a guide. If it works you will have more cash left in your pocket.

[Richard Harris 5Participant @richardharris5]

Posted by John Reese on 14/04/2018 00:04:58:

Have you considered building a simple device to guide the punch when it is struck? The important thing is that the punch Be presented to the work at a consistent angle. It is also important to prevent the punch from tilting when it is struck. Try making up a guide. If it works you will have more cash left in your pocket.

Hi John!

I did originally thing of this and have actually gone back to the idea a couple of times as well, mulling over it. The reason I don't think I'll pursue it is this: I have ZERO steel for fabricating anything. My dad has only recently taken on woodturning as a hobby, before that, nothing. I had an engineering lathe that I use for small aluminium parts only. So we've just never sourced or held onto any steel scraps etc that I get the impression many people do – then they can essentially make such things "for free". The cost of buying the steel to make even a small and very simple jig would be the same as buying a fly press – which got for next to nothing as I think very few people really have a use for them these days. Then you have the benefit of a fly press not requiring any work to "make", is designed perfect for the task, AND could do other tasks as well (like punching, drifting, bending). You get the idea… that's where I ended up anyway

[Richard Harris 5Participant @richardharris5]

So I have found a Norton #2 fly press nearby that is in tidy condition and has been used in a workshop (so all works perfectly). I think #2 would be good enough (?) in terms of force, with the added benefit of not taking up excessive room in the shed.

It has it's iron testicle intact.

It has no tooling with it though… I wondered if anyone could help.

The chap says it's a 3/4 straight thread (meaning not tapered). Any ideas what thread this would be? 3/4 BSW? What pitch?

I'd like to just make my own tooling obviously so need to know how I'd go about it…

[Brian WoodParticipant @brianwood45127]

Hello Richard,

I have not heard of an iron testicle before [ I dread to think what it might be too] and I think you need to get the seller to explain the 3/4 straight thread as well, it is meaningless as stated.

If the press works are you able to see it working before you buy? That might answer a lot of questions for you.

Regards Brian

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Probably means a 3/4" square thread rather than straight which refers to the thread profile.

You would not want a flypress without it's "balls"

[Richard Harris 5Participant @richardharris5]

Unfortunately it's likely going to be a buy before you try, but it doesn''t cost much, and it's been used in a workshop/ serviced recently, so I'm not too concerned about function. More just curious about tooling.

Just waiting to hear back about the fooling fit. TBH I'd be surprised if the tooling itself is THREADED as that would be a lot of force to put onto a thread, seems a bit unnecessary, especially given that most people are making tooling for these and won't want to be cutting a potentially complicated thread each time for each new tool. I expect we have our wires crossed.

Most "fly press tooling" I see online just seems to be a round bar. Square would be preferred for me as well, then you can keep 90 degrees a bit easier, but oh well..

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

The 3/4" thread is likely to be the thread ontop of the ram, though thinking again it is probably the pitch that is 3/4" on about a 1 3/4" dia

Bottom of ram should be 1" bore so you put a round shank tool into it and retain with a couple of screws

Edited By JasonB on 15/07/2018 13:23:57

[Richard Harris 5Participant @richardharris5]

Posted by JasonB on 15/07/2018 13:21:15:

The 3/4" thread is likely to be the thread ontop of the ram, though thinking again it is probably the pitch that is 3/4" on about a 1 3/4" dia

Bottom of ram should be 1" bore so you put a round shank tool into it and retain with a couple of screws

Edited By JasonB on 15/07/2018 13:23:57

That is in line with what I am now thinking. Someone I follow on IG just picked up a #8 Norton and says it has a 1" bore for tooling, so I expect this is likely the same for the #2 as you suggest as well!

[Nicholas FarrParticipant @nicholasfarr14254]

Hi Richard, the screw on a Norton No. 2 has a diameter of 1 7/16" but the 3/4" thread is likely referring to a thread in the yoke into which the tooling screws into. If it anything like the one I have (which isn't a Norton) it will be an oddball pitch, I think mine was 3/4" by 14 TPI. During a strip down I bored mine out to 1", which is the same as my No. 4 flypress.

I do agree that a flypress would be the best way to go, they are a very useful tool.

Regards Nick.

[Richard Harris 5Participant @richardharris5]

Thanks Nick! If it turns out it I threaded, I’ll keep this in mind. I only have very small mill & lathe, but boring out should be possible.

I was wondering, seeing as you use one yourself, what the recommended material was for tooling? Is the idea to make the entire tool, including shank out of tool steel? Or is that excessive? Can you make it mostly out of mild steel then the cutting / wearing part that is in contact with the work out of tool steel?

[Anonymous]

The hole in the ram on my flypress is plain 1" diameter with an external screwlock.

For bending fixtures I use hot rolled steel. Similarly for riveting/shearing/punching I use hot rolled steel for the fixture but make the tooling from silver steel or gauge plate properly hardened and tempered.

Andrew

[Nicholas FarrParticipant @nicholasfarr14254]

Hi Richard, if it is threaded, checkout the thread first as it may be a standard thread. As I said, mine isn't a Norton one, which is maybe why it had an oddball thread in it. If you do need to bore it out, you may have a bit of a job on a small lathe, as the yoke is a bit of a lump even on a No. 2 and it is a triangular shape with one of the pointy bits being flat instead of pointy. It will also need to be bored truly in line with the yoke and the screw which drives it down. Might be something you may have to intrust to a jobbing shop or someone you know with a larger lathe.

I agree with Andrew, most tooling does not need to be anything hi-tech and it is quite easy to knock up something out of mild steel or a bit of EN8 if you want it to bit a bit tougher or for a lot of repetition work. Use silver steel/gauge at the business end as he suggests.

Regards Nick.

[Nicholas FarrParticipant @nicholasfarr14254]

Hi Richard, just for interest below is a photo I made for my No. 4 flypress, for pressing sheet metal. The actual pressing tooling I bought from Warco, which is designed for use in a vice **LINK** this was adapted so that larger pieces could be pressed that would be difficult to do in a vice. This is a 6" version and it incorporates a back stop for doing as many pieces the same as I need without having to measure each one individually.

Hope this helps you with ideas of what can be achieved.

I did add a 6" rule each side to aid measuring, but the first 13mm was cut off the rules so the actual measurement is from the centre of the vee.

Regards Nick.

Edited By Nicholas Farr on 16/07/2018 21:50:30

[Richard Harris 5Participant @richardharris5]

Thanks Andrew, that's very useful to know. I'll stick to mild for most things (including the shank) and reserve tool steel more specialist tools (I'm comfortable with full heat treatment).

Thanks Nick. Well, I truly hope it isn't some sort of unusual thread… or even threaded at all. To tell you the truth, my mini lathe isn't even turning on at the moment, so it may be more of a faff to do than I would like to. I'm sure I can reach out to someone though if I do need a thread cutting.

Your setup looks excellent as well! I've been thinking of the various other uses it could have in the workshop, so I'm hopeful it'll have quite a few uses beyond just stamping a touchmark.

I'm only slightly hesitant with it being a #2, that it won't deliver as much punch… but hopefully it'll be more than sufficient.

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