Aircraft General Discussion

[Martin ConnellyParticipant @martinconnelly55370]

Hth, there is very little room for error when you are flying a display close to the ground. Also if there is any mechanical failure you have no room to recover and consider what to do next. There are also more birds near the ground for a bird strike. In order to entertain the crowd aircraft are flown close to the limit of what they can do safely. Displays put more stress on an aircraft than the boring but safe patterns flown by passenger aircraft. Finally human error. Set the local air pressure at ground level wrong on your altimeter then fly into the ground that is twenty feet higher than you thought.

Martin

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Posted by hth on 11/08/2016 13:06:02:

Why are there so many accidents at airshows?

…

I think it's a lot to do with the way people are wired to behave in a crowd. In the right circumstances with an Adrenalin rush we are all capable of acting foolishly. It seems that even well-trained pilots make serious misjudgements when trying to put on an extra good show for the public.

This video clip shows the run up to a B52 bomber crash. I think its the same one I saw as part of a course on man-management when it was accompanied with a lot of background on the pilot's increasingly erratic behaviour over a period of years.

From memory he was very a senior pilot (Colonel) who liked to fly the B52 as if it was a fighter. He enjoyed flying and liked his reputation for pushing the envelope. He had talent, experience and natural authority. As senior pilot he had the air-show job.

Over the years there had been a series of incidents where he successfully ignored the authority of successive Brigadiers. He started by ignoring air-base parking regulations and then began to take increasing risks in the air. His alarming behaviour at the controls was well known. Many junior officers refused to fly with him. He deliberately buzzed his Brigadier at an air-show after the Brigadier ordered him not to fly too low. None of his Commanding Officers disciplined him or grounded him. His Brigadier was concerned enough to put another Colonel on the fatal flight to moderate the pilots behaviour but did nothing else.

The crash investigation revealed that all of the pilots previous commanding officers were aware there was a serious problem with the chap "showing off" and that none of them had done anything about it. Part of that was their training that 'get up and go' is desirable in military men. The root cause of the crash was failure to manage a difficult individual, which is why it popped up during my man-management training.

My job had nothing to do with aircraft but I certainly had my fair share of people who wouldn't be told. Quite often it's best for managers to ignore the eccentricities of individuals – we are all a bit odd. The lesson in this case was that managers have to act early when a behaviour might have harmful consequences. This included watching for the possibility that people will behave oddly under pressure.

I hope I got the details right. I couldn't find the course notes.

Dave

[robjon44Participant @robjon44]

Hi, Ian s c, nice piccy of the Mossie, dont know where he was stationed at the time (in England) but one day dad was on his way back from the NAAFI wagon with his mate when a flight of Mosquitos was delivered, he believed that they must have been among the very first as this was 1941, any road up, they created so much mayhem beating up the airfield etc that it looked more like a raid than a delivery so they took a slight detour into a blast shelter until they new whose air force they belonged to! At a much later stage of the proceedings he was posted to India, where using chinese labour they built an airfield in a desert somewhere near Calcutta or whatever its called this week, to swap out Merlin engines from all the aircraft in that theatre & return them to RR for refurb, this involves climbing to 30,000 feet whilst you the injuneer writes down revs & pressures & the points at which the supercharger changes gear etc, followed by coming down a damn sight faster than you went up. He had many adventures there but this is just one, he said they periodically got a visit from young American officers whose uniforms had clearly had the attention of their fathers tailor, they wished to know if it was possible to purchase a couple of new Merlins to put in their P38 Lightnings & would pay cash, they would reply " I would like to help sir but these all have serial numbers on them & I dont want to spend the rest of my life in clink", happy days. Bob.

[martin perman 1Participant @martinperman1]

Ever since I was a small boy I have been interested in Aviation and my parents took me to many Airshows and when I had my own transport I attended many shows around the country and still attend the odd show and I have only ever seen three fatal crashes in 50 years, our regulations in this country make airshows one of the safest in the world.

Martin P

[Ian S CParticipant @iansc]

There are quite a few vidios, and info on KA 114, including it's build, I havn't checked but I think there is another Mossie on the molds.

Ian S C

[Pat Wright 1Participant @patwright1]

Hi Ian S C

The second DH98 Mossie is well out of the molds and due to be test flown later this month.

**LINK**

There are 4 blogs on the first page, then go to the next page (older posts) where the 5th blog gives the history of TV959 ZK-FHC.

Ian, have you come across ZK-DBI which was at Ashburton for many years and now at Rangiora as you are close to these places.

Hope the link works ok as it has been a long time between posts.

Pat

[Ian S CParticipant @iansc]

Hi Pat, no gen on DBI, although I'm reasonably close by, I might as well be on Mars, I don't drive, and it's a long way these days on the push bike.

See they were putting prop on FHC, I see it will have about 2 weeks test flying before getting packed off to the States, that makes 3, the first one in Canada was(I think) a prototype, not built to fly, but I think it was upgraded. I think number 5 is ear marked for the UK. The father (Hugh Skilling) of the Mossie pilot (Keith Skilling) was CFI at the Otago Aero Club when I started my apprenticship in the next door hanger, Keith was just a kid in school uniform in those days.

Ian S C

[Ed DuffnerParticipant @edduffner79357]

I have just been wire brushing some old files in the kitchen sink to get the rust and coca cola off them and a Spitfire flew overhead. Heard the engine and managed to crane my neck through the window to see the silhouette directly over the house, heading approx' SSW.

Ed.

[martin perman 1Participant @martinperman1]

Rub the files a bit harder and you might get the Lancaster

Martin P

[Ed DuffnerParticipant @edduffner79357]

I tried but no luck Martin. The only way I'll see more Merlins today is to get the models down from the loft. I have a 1/24th Spitfire and Mosquito to build (and too many other kits). Seeing these lovely photos from Ian is very inspiring.

Ed.

[martin perman 1Participant @martinperman1]

Good evening Gentlemen,

At 16:30 my Daughter rang me to say Facebook was buzzing that Airlander was due to fly for the first time at 17:00 so I grabbed my camera and drove the two miles to the back of Cardington Hangers, I struggled to park the car just as my Daughter arrived, we stood and waited and at 17:20 my wife rang to tell us that BBC1 news had confirmed the flight but there would be a forty minute delay, from that news bulletin the traffic problems went exponential , at 17:50 a message on Facebook announced that the flight would not take place due to a problem during pre flight checks, it had run up the engines and all the strobes were switched on but that was it. As I was walking to my car a young chap with a tripod on his shoulder with Jodrell bank mounted on it walked past and I asked if he was a freelance and he said no BBC, as he was loading up he said he was coming back tomorrow, damn I'm working in London but I did manage to get a couple of pictures. We then had a struggle against the torrent of cars coming to watch. 

 

Martin P

Edited By martin perman on 14/08/2016 19:26:08

[Anonymous]

Ah well, at least I won't waste time watching the BBC news at 10pm to see the advertised first flight. Although it's almost worth watching again to see the BBC reporter admit on air he'd forgotten what he was going to say. Obviously overwhelmed by the technology.

Andrew

[NJHParticipant @njh]

 

Call round here anytime Andrew – I' m always forgetting what I was going to say … and had (yet another) demonstration today of forgetting what I was about to do! I am fitting a vanity unit in the ensuite room and obviously need tools. My plumbing kit is ( or rather should be!   kept in a caddy in the workshop. I took that in and discovered after a while that some widget or other was missing – back to the workshop and, when I was in there, had forgotten what I had gone out for – so back inside where I , of course, remembered. This charade continued on and off throughout the morning – I gave up after lunch and drove over to see my son. I will resume battle with the vanity unit tomorrow. ( If I fail I will apply to the BBC for a job citing your example as evidence of my qualifications!)

Norman

Sorry all for posting this here whereas it should be in "What did you do today " but, as I didn't, then that would be be wrong too !

 

 

Edited By NJH on 14/08/2016 20:09:38

[martin perman 1Participant @martinperman1]

Norman,

A friend of mine rang the other day and said he is going to buy a camera that you put round cats necks to see where they have been, he intends to wear it himself so that when he puts a tool down the camera will show where it is

Martin P

[JAParticipant @ja]

Posted by Ed Duffner on 14/08/2016 13:41:12:

I have just been wire brushing some old files in the kitchen sink to get the rust and coca cola off them and a Spitfire flew overhead. Heard the engine and managed to crane my neck through the window to see the silhouette directly over the house, heading approx' SSW.

Ed.

Ed

Rub a lot harder, make a wish and, perhaps, sell your soul and you might get a Martin-Baker MB5.

Now if there was ever an aeroplane…… I believe it died in the late 40s in the USA.

JA

[Flying FiferParticipant @flyingfifer]

Rub a lot harder, make a wish and, perhaps, sell your soul and you might get a Martin-Baker MB5.

OOOOOOHHHH …… if only it were that easy.

Alan

[Anonymous]

Posted by NJH on 14/08/2016 20:02:42:

Call round here anytime Andrew – I' m always forgetting what I was going to say …

Unfortunately so do I, and I keep misplacing things and ending up in a room wondering what it was I was going to do in said room when I got there.

Agreed, it's getting difficult to know where to post items without getting excoriated for it being in the wrong place, or not relevant, or not what the OP originally asked. Ho hum.

Andrew

[Gordon TarlingParticipant @gordontarling37126]

Posted by Flying Fifer on 15/08/2016 10:41:25:

Rub a lot harder, make a wish and, perhaps, sell your soul and you might get a Martin-Baker MB5.

OOOOOOHHHH …… if only it were that easy.

Alan

 

Actually, not that difficult.  https://youtu.be/5QEBHzuo7nQ

Edited By Gordon Tarling 1 on 15/08/2016 17:20:48

[Flying FiferParticipant @flyingfifer]

Beat you to it Gordon, way back in 1956 or 57 I scaled up the 1/72nd scale MB 5 drawing in Vol 7 of Aircraft of the Fighting Powers to about 36" span & built a controline Amco 3.5cc powered model. It was nice but not quite the real thing which I always thought was a real cracker. Might still have that drawing somewhere. Never did find out where/when the original was scrapped.

Unfortunately after WW2 nobody was interested in preserving aircraft & by the time that they were there were not many left to preserve.

Alan

[martin perman 1Participant @martinperman1]

Gentlemen,

Airlander took off around 19:43 this evening, unfortunately I couldnt be there but my Daughter and Son in law were and I've pinched there pictures. It was only up for about ten minutes after which it landed again.

 

Martin P

 

Edited By martin perman on 17/08/2016 20:33:34

[Anonymous]

Thanks Martin, good to know it's flown. Not a bad day for a first flight, high pressure in charge and light winds. I wonder when they'll be offering passenger flights? One big regret is that we didn't take a trip on Europa when they were offering trips over Bedford in the late 70s?

Andrew

[Ian S CParticipant @iansc]

Saw the Airship on TV tonite, from what they said about it you wont be getting any passenger flights, cargo only, still you might be able to cadge a ride if you are in the right place at the right time. If they arn't booked up with work now, they 'v got a problem.

Ian S C

[Danny M2ZParticipant @dannym2z]

Whilst fishing yesterday down at the lake I heard a sneaky multirotor noise and there was a NSW Police stealthy helicopter looking for some bloke that had gone walkabout.

What actually amazed me was that the helicopter was so quiet until it banked into a turn and the rotors bit into the air so that the 'wokka-wokka' sound became apparent.

Driving on the way home the same machine followed me for a while about 50m to starboard until somebody figured out that I was not the person that they were looking for.

Nice helicopter.

If anybody is totally bored, then just google Long Tan. That's the day that 108 Aussie diggers held off 2500 VC and NVA attackers. Sorry if it's a bit off topic but I am an ex-digger and quite proud of my mates. It's a very special day!

* Danny M *

[MuzzerParticipant @muzzer]

What I don't understand is what happens to the balloon (aircraft?) once it has dropped off its cargo. Does it fly off uncontrolledly up to the edge of space or do you have to swap the cargo for a load of dead weight? Seems a bit of a logistical issue to me. Obviously there must be a lot of cost involved in filling that thing up with helium and you can't go jettisoning a lot of it when you dump the cargo.

Perhaps I'm missing something obvious? If they use water as a disposable ballast, that's neither free nor necessarily convenient.

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Posted by Muzzer on 18/08/2016 14:53:35:

…

Obviously there must be a lot of cost involved in filling that thing up with helium and you can't go jettisoning a lot of it when you dump the cargo.

Perhaps I'm missing something obvious? If they use water as a disposable ballast, that's neither free nor necessarily convenient.

You could reduce lift by either re-compressing some of the Helium in flight or by adding air under pressure to the balloon.

I doubt an airship would want to carry a hefty compressor, so increasing density by adding air feels more practical. The Helium could be purified later on the ground, thus reducing losses.

Just guessing.

Dave

[Author]

Posts