3-Phase Motor Conversions: Are They All Hype?

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3-Phase Motor Conversions: Are They All Hype?

Home Forums General Questions 3-Phase Motor Conversions: Are They All Hype?

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  • #364674
    DrDave
    Participant
      @drdave

      Having read many descriptions of how good the VFD/3-phase motor drives are for upgrading your lathe, I took the plunge & bought a set for my Super 7 from one of our reputable suppliers. Whilst it runs well, it always sounded under-powered, even though the motor is rated at 550 W (¾ hp). Even “light” cuts make the lathe audibly slow down. The other night, I even stalled the motor. With the lathe on its second highest speed, potentiometer set to “5”, and drilling out a 6 mm hole to 10 mm (in steel), I was a little surprised at this. I would not expect any problem doing this with the original, single phase motor.

      So, is the VFD set up incorrectly (I left the settings as supplied), am I doing something wrong, or are the virtues of the VFD overstated? Is this behaviour to be expected at 50% speed and are my expectations too high? What are other people’s experiences?

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      #26113
      DrDave
      Participant
        @drdave
        #364676
        KWIL
        Participant
          @kwil

          I suspect your settings are incorrect. My S7 has never stalled and does everything as expected. Yes I do drive it hard!

          #364677
          John Rudd
          Participant
            @johnrudd16576

            I have 3ph/vfd conversions on 2 lathes and a 626 mill…..None of them lack power to turn/mill/drill or cut……

            As kwil points out, it may be a setting in your inverter or a faulty motor ( likely/unlikely…the jury is still out in this one…)

            Have you tried contacting your supplier and explaining the symptoms to them? If they are reputable then they ought to be able/willing to help….

            #364680
            DrDave
            Participant
              @drdave

              Thanks for the prompt replies. It appears that I erred in assuming that the supplier would set up the VFD, as this is sold as suitable for the S7. I will have a dig around in the bowels of the controller & see if I can get it to work. Somewhat annoying because it is attached to the back of the lathe stand…

              #364683
              John Paton 1
              Participant
                @johnpaton1

                Three thoughts:

                1. Make sure you know how your motor is wired and connected (star or delta configuration?) It does make a difference and the motor may even burn out if it is wrong.

                2. If the inverter is correctly set up you should be getting 415v across two phases. You can check this with a meter

                3. If you are unsure, please get a competent electrician to assist – 415v will kill whereas 230v usually doesnt!

                #364685
                John Rudd
                Participant
                  @johnrudd16576

                  On the basis that this is a domestic 240 supply going to your inverter…..and it is a 240v ac in, 0-240v 3 ph out…( make and model number would help!)

                  Firstly, before you change any inverter settings, Check the motor is wired for Delta and is not wired for Star. This makes a big difference!

                  #364686
                  Thor 🇳🇴
                  Participant
                    @thor

                    I upgraded one of my lathes to a 3-phase motor with inverter drive, and I am very satisfied. I had to re-connect the wires from Star to Delta and enter motor specifications into the inverter drive (after reading the manual a few times). So my motor and single phase in, inverter was purchased as a package, but the motor was not wired for Delta and the motor specification was not programmed into the inverter, you are supposed to do that yourself. I hope you get it sorted, good luck,

                    Thor

                    Edited By Thor on 30/07/2018 15:57:20

                    #364688
                    Mike Poole
                    Participant
                      @mikepoole82104

                      I feel that it is important to remember that if you turn the motor speed down to half then you will only have half the motors rated power. If you set the v belt drive to the speed you want then the motor will be making full power at the speed you want. A VFD will not mean that you will never need to adjust the belts just that you won’t need to do it so often. Although a VFD can give full torque down to low frequencies if it is a flux vector type control, as power is torque times rpm then the power will be small at low revs. As usual you don’t get something for nothing, the laws of mechanics and electrics still apply

                      Mike

                      #364689
                      AJW
                      Participant
                        @ajw

                        I fitted a Bosch VFD and Brooks .37kw motor to my ML7 and wished I had done it years ago.
                        I did however wire it all up on the bench to see how it all worked as there are so many parameters which can be changed – it came with 2 books and at first it quite mind blowing!
                        I’m sure your solution will be a simple wiring change.

                        Alan

                        #364690
                        DrDave
                        Participant
                          @drdave

                          I have revised the controller parameters (they were slightly low, but not greatly so). Slightly improved performance, but still gutless at 50%. I fear that the motor is wired as star, not delta. Unfortunately the S7 installation results in it being almost impossible to access the connector on the motor. Checking/changing this will be a PITA!

                          I’ll post the results when I have dug managed to get access to the motor: this might take a while…

                          #364693
                          Neil Wyatt
                          Moderator
                            @neilwyatt

                            To answer the basic question – no!

                            Brushless motors and VFD 3-phase motors are great.

                            Neil

                            #364695
                            DrDave
                            Participant
                              @drdave

                              The cover plate is not very useful, but reference to t’internet suggests that the motor is wired as star.

                              694d6f8e-de80-41b1-b0bd-828d5ccfd0fa.jpeg3d9b38c9-836c-4293-bb90-1348ceea806e.jpeg

                              #364701
                              John Rudd
                              Participant
                                @johnrudd16576

                                You need to remove the three links connected in series first.

                                Then, place them as per the left image on the lid, I2 connects to W1, etc….

                                The links will appear side by side if you wire it correctly.

                                This will remedy your lathe's poor performance….

                                If the motor runs in the correct direction, dont swap the incoming wires…

                                Edited By John Rudd on 30/07/2018 17:03:11

                                #364704
                                DrDave
                                Participant
                                  @drdave

                                  John, thanks for confirming that the connections are wrong. I’ll rewire & try again after dinner.

                                  #364708
                                  not done it yet
                                  Participant
                                    @notdoneityet

                                    I expect it is safer, for the motor manufacturer, to supply the motor wired star. If the motor were wired delta and someone (a non-electrician) connected it to a 415V three phase supply, the motor would likely be toast. As it is, the motor power would apparently be reduced to about 320W. If running at 25Hz (the 50% you mention?) it could be down to only 180W, so not surprising the lathe did not function properly.

                                    #364711
                                    John Rudd
                                    Participant
                                      @johnrudd16576

                                      Ndiy,

                                      While I agree with your comments, I consider it is poor form for the reseller not to advise on the products where different modes of operation may be encountered…as in this case, a motor/vfd destined for domestic use…its just fortunate that there are folk like us on hand to help…

                                      Buy hey….its the world we live in …..no one cares…..

                                      Edited By John Rudd on 30/07/2018 17:59:38

                                      #364712
                                      Muzzer
                                      Participant
                                        @muzzer
                                        Posted by John Paton 1 on 30/07/2018 15:33:02:

                                        Three thoughts:

                                        1. Make sure you know how your motor is wired and connected (star or delta configuration?) It does make a difference and the motor may even burn out if it is wrong.

                                        2. If the inverter is correctly set up you should be getting 415v across two phases. You can check this with a meter

                                        3. If you are unsure, please get a competent electrician to assist – 415v will kill whereas 230v usually doesnt!

                                        1. You aren't going to burn anything out if you miswire it. Once you reconnect it in delta it should be fine. Just make certain you have set the maximum phase current to whatever it says on the nameplate and check if it's 2 pole (2900rpm) or 4 pole (1450rpm etc). You should get that right in the config too if you want to fix the issue. It would still work fine if you configure the wrong number of poles but if your display is in RPM rather than Hz, it will display speed incorrectly.

                                        2. Wrong – you should see 230V phase to phase unless it's a special VFD that boosts the voltage internally (I think we have been told otherwise).

                                        3. Not sure I'd go with that. 120V may be a lot safer than 230V but I wouldn't argue the toss between and 230V and 415V. I've had 415V across both hands and am still here to tell the tale but it could very easily have been curtains. I CAN tell you that it actually hurt like hell and I haven't done it again since.

                                        Murray

                                        Edited By Muzzer on 30/07/2018 18:10:31

                                        #364714
                                        larry phelan 1
                                        Participant
                                          @larryphelan1

                                          There are suppliers and suppliers,some take the trouble to explain things and help,others dont bother to do either.

                                          How do I know? Guess !

                                          #364715
                                          Neil Lickfold
                                          Participant
                                            @neillickfold44316

                                            After setting the motor to the lower voltage option, get the hand book that came with it, and check the current settings, for your motor. From the motor data plate. The drive will generally go from 20hz to 50hz, but is programmable to 400 hz. Don't go over 70hz on the max limit. Some say don't go over 60z,(USA and Canada power frequency). Like others have said, as the frequency drops,so does the RPM, and so does the total power available. Also there is breaking options, and slow down/ decelleration settings. I think mine is like 0.3seconds or something like that, and have the accelleration at the same rate, on the motor start up and shut down.

                                            I am surprised that if you brought the unit as a complete set up ready to run, that they would have the motor not in the correct configuration. I am assuming that your VFD is the 220V 3phase output one, and Not the 415V output one.

                                            I have a microswitch inline on the S1 control circuit. This micro switch I use is a normal closed one, and is opened/broken circuit when the contact is made. It stops the lathe for when I do forward thread cutting. And allows me to turn the switch to reverse to wind back for another threading pass. Really good for internal threads. I have some pictures in my Album with it.

                                            Neil

                                            #364716
                                            Clive Foster
                                            Participant
                                              @clivefoster55965

                                              DrDave

                                              Decent short description here :- **LINK** about what happens when you try to drive a motor connected for 415 volts (star) from an 230 volt output VFD. Comprehensible for the ordinary guy too. Basically 1/4 power output running at 29 hz is what you get.

                                              All the HowToBlog entries on the Inverter Drive Supermarket are worth a look :- **LINK** . Short, not to techie and give a good feel for WTHIGO.

                                              In my experience a good firm to deal with. Decent prices and helpful when you aren't certain what is best for your application.  Steered me to an Eaton DE1 to drive the hydraulic pump on my car lift saving me about 1/3 over a more normal VFD.  No display,  use a calibrated knob on the potentiometer if you want to know what speed you've set. preset 5 second acceleration / deceleration  ramp and preset 50 Hz output.  Use like normal starter with via start & stop buttons.  Parameters can be varied with an extra widget.  Seems much better fit for what we normally do than the usual VFD with snazzy display and foot thick instruction book describing umpteen parameters

                                              Clive.

                                              Edited By Clive Foster on 30/07/2018 18:28:38

                                              #364730
                                              DrDave
                                              Participant
                                                @drdave

                                                Rewired to delta and, pause for dramatic effect, what a difference! On 50% setting, double the DoC used before & it does not bat an eyelid. Bootiful. No speed drop that I can hear.

                                                That you all for your help & comments.

                                                However.

                                                I am a bit miffed that the reseller charges a premium price for the S7 upgrade, but appears not to set anything up. Quite what their added value is to justify the higher price than buying the same bits from, say, eBay is not clear. I will avoid them in future.

                                                #364731
                                                DrDave
                                                Participant
                                                  @drdave

                                                  As an aside (and not wanting to hijack the “blue chips” thread); one of the test pieces that I used was, I think, an old car king pin. Anyhow, it is rusty, so I think that it is steel. It has a hard band where it used to sit inside a bearing. Hard to turn with the swarf comming off like wire wool. Mostly blue, with an occasional flash of orange. When one bit caught fire, I though it was time to change to a rather more mild bit of steel…

                                                  #364735
                                                  john fletcher 1
                                                  Participant
                                                    @johnfletcher1

                                                    A few years ago one of my friends bought an inverter and was in my opinion was messed about for nearly two weeks before the programming was sorted. When I got involved ( and by the way I'm no expert here) I was told phone after 7 O'clock, then to be told we don't want evening calls, day time only. When my friend call during the day he was told we are too busy to answer queries during the day as we are busy packing parcel and have no time for gossiping. Eventually I got the lathe working, a minor error, but not the back up as the advert said., just sales. Since then I've recommended Chinese made inverters to my friends and all are very happy, especially at the price. John

                                                    #364740
                                                    Stuart Bridger
                                                    Participant
                                                      @stuartbridger82290

                                                      +1 on the customer service experience from Inverter Drive Supermarket. When I converted my Chipmaster. They were incredibly helpful .I was a complete novice and they answered all my questions and helped me ensure that I was purchasing the correct solution. All for a one off hobby sale. I was a bit embarrassed how much presales time I took up.

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