Cylinder/ liner mix

Cylinder/ liner mix

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  • #331546
    Sam Longley 1
    Participant
      @samlongley1

      Project uses a brass block 2" *2.5" *2.5" as the cylinder, bored & lined with Phosphor bronze for a 1" bore stainless steel piston

      It is my first traction engine & i am not happy with my machining of the brass block & at £ 35-00 a pop I do not want to buy another.

      I do have some pieces of aluminium big enough & wondered if I were to machine that, line it with the Phosphor bronze as before, would it work or would differential expansion be a problem?

      Would the slide valve & regulator valves ( also PB) rub the aluminium & wear it too much, or want to stick, thus spoiling the seal under steam?

      As I gradually work on the model my skills are improving quickly & I might get the brass tidied up but I just feel that I could do a lot better with a second go. Plus I am beginning to understand the processes much better.

      Any comment appreciated

      Thanks

      #8995
      Sam Longley 1
      Participant
        @samlongley1
        #331554
        Hopper
        Participant
          @hopper

          I'm not a traction engine guy, but speaking generally, I'd be more worried about rapid wear of the sliding surfaces of aluminium than the differential expansion. Plenty of motorbike and car engines run cast iron cylinder lines in aluminium blocks and operate at far higher temps than a wet steam engine. It all comes down to making the liner a tight enough interference fit then heating the aluminium and dropping in the frozen liner

          But rubbing aluminium with a slide valve might cause wear. Steel can run in aluminium, eg Honda camshafts etc, but its usually with darn good lubrication by oil, not steam and condensate!

          Post some more details and pics of your cylinder and its problems. Plenty of knowledgeable steam model guys on here can probably tell you how to fix it. I'm sure you are not the first to make whatever missteps have been taken.

          #331559
          Clive Foster
          Participant
            @clivefoster55965

            Looking at the tables of frictional coefficients phosphor bronze on aluminium is probably not a good pair. Not actually listed but interpolation suggests its very high under dry or limited lubrication conditions so wear would be rapid.

            I imagine the brass / phosphor bronze pairing was chosen to be both corrosion resistant if put away wet and to have low wear under limited or even no lubrication.

            Camshafts, rockers et al running direct in aluminium alloy are fully flood lubricated so friction and wear isn't an issue there.

            So long as you have a bit of meat left on the block should be no great problem in modifying things to compensate for errors. Steam engines aren't exactly critical in most engineering aspects. There is a lot of leeway in slide valve systems to correct things if the portal are bit out of position.

            Clive.

            #331561
            Emgee
            Participant
              @emgee

              I think Hopper and Clive missed the fact the cylinder liner would still be phosphor bronze but the cylinder block would be aluminium as opposed to brass.

              Emgee

              #331562
              Hopper
              Participant
                @hopper
                Posted by Emgee on 11/12/2017 12:22:14:

                I think Hopper and Clive missed the fact the cylinder liner would still be phosphor bronze but the cylinder block would be aluminium as opposed to brass.

                Emgee

                Not at all. That's why I quoted motorcycle engines with aluminium cylinder blocks around cast iron liners. A far greater difference in coefficient of expansion than aluminum with bronze liners.

                #331569
                Emgee
                Participant
                  @emgee
                  Posted by Hopper on 11/12/2017 11:15:40:

                  I'm not a traction engine guy, but speaking generally, I'd be more worried about rapid wear of the sliding surfaces of aluminium than the differential expansion.

                  This is referring to wear of aluminium which is not applicable in this instance.

                  Emgee

                  #331571
                  JasonB
                  Moderator
                    @jasonb
                    Posted by Emgee on 11/12/2017 13:05:55:

                    Posted by Hopper on 11/12/2017 11:15:40:

                    I'm not a traction engine guy, but speaking generally, I'd be more worried about rapid wear of the sliding surfaces of aluminium than the differential expansion.

                    This is referring to wear of aluminium which is not applicable in this instance.

                    Emgee

                    Yes it is as the valve will be running against the port faces cut into the cylinder block.

                    Corrosion may also be a problem with ali against copper, bronze all is a warm damp enviroment.

                    #331572
                    Sam Longley 1
                    Participant
                      @samlongley1
                      Posted by Emgee on 11/12/2017 13:05:55:

                      Posted by Hopper on 11/12/2017 11:15:40:

                      I'm not a traction engine guy, but speaking generally, I'd be more worried about rapid wear of the sliding surfaces of aluminium than the differential expansion.

                      This is referring to wear of aluminium which is not applicable in this instance.

                      Emgee

                      Sorry but it is part of my problem

                      The slide valve & the regulator valves are made of PB & slide against the aluminium block . The main one being the slide valve which is constantly rubbing against the surface.

                      Edited By Sam Longley 1 on 11/12/2017 13:19:04

                      #331575
                      roy entwistle
                      Participant
                        @royentwistle24699

                        Emgee I think that the wear that Hopper referred to, is the valve rubbing against the aluminium block

                        Roy

                        #331576
                        Jeff Dayman
                        Participant
                          @jeffdayman43397

                          Sam – If you are going to change materials for your block I suggest a chunk of Meehanite cast iron.

                          1. lower cost than aluminum or brass/bronze, widely available

                          2. machines beautifully

                          3. ph bronze valve will run perfectly on a well finished / lapped cast iron surface with little or no wear for years

                          4. well proven for use with steam – no expansion worries

                          5. stronger more durable than aluminum and threads will be much less prone to stripping than aluminum

                          Years ago I bought a stick of 2" Meehanite 2 feet long for about $10 as I recall and have carved out MANY small steam cylinders and parts from it with every success.

                          The only drawback with it is that it covers everything in a black dust while machining, but this is very minor thing in my opinion.

                          #331587
                          IanT
                          Participant
                            @iant

                            You might pay a bit more for it these days Jeff…

                            IanT

                            #331591
                            Mark Rand
                            Participant
                              @markrand96270

                              Don't confuse Meehanite with the continuously cast iron bar that one seller purveys. If it hasn't got 'Meehanite' moulded into it or got a certificate available, it won't be Meehanite. No problem with con-cast bar, but there is a bit of false trades description amongst one or two suppliers.

                              #331604
                              Emgee
                              Participant
                                @emgee
                                Posted by Emgee on 11/12/2017 13:05:55:

                                Posted by Hopper on 11/12/2017 11:15:40:

                                I'm not a traction engine guy, but speaking generally, I'd be more worried about rapid wear of the sliding surfaces of aluminium than the differential expansion.

                                This is referring to wear of aluminium which is not applicable in this instance.

                                My apologies, clearly a mistaken statement considering steam and not IC.

                                Emgee

                                #331648
                                Jeff Dayman
                                Participant
                                  @jeffdayman43397
                                  Posted by IanT on 11/12/2017 14:49:43:

                                  You might pay a bit more for it these days Jeff…

                                  IanT

                                  Granted, Ian, I'm sure that's true. My bar was marked down in price as it was ordered in error by another customer and the metal vendor did not want to ship it back 500 miles to one of the "rust belt" states. He preferred to get some cash on the spot from me instead. I was lucky to find it there that day. I'm pretty sure though that to buy Meehanite today would still be much cheaper than brass or bronze and possibly aluminum in a given size.

                                  I have also used other no-name brand continuously cast bar from my metal suppliers as well, and it was not bad at all, but not as nice to work with as Meehanite.

                                  #331653
                                  Neil Wyatt
                                  Moderator
                                    @neilwyatt
                                    Posted by Mark Rand on 11/12/2017 15:14:15:

                                    Don't confuse Meehanite with the continuously cast iron bar that one seller purveys. If it hasn't got 'Meehanite' moulded into it or got a certificate available, it won't be Meehanite. No problem with con-cast bar, but there is a bit of false trades description amongst one or two suppliers.

                                    Actually Meehanite is a whole range of cast irons, including virtually unmachineable white cast irons.

                                    'meehanite' (small m) is one of those words like 'hoover' that has a dubious generic status.

                                    Neil

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