Fire

This topic has 31 replies, 16 voices, and was last updated 17 July 2013 at 20:08 by dcosta.

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21 February 2011 at 20:33 #5415
Colin Jacobs 1
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@colinjacobs1
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21 February 2011 at 20:33 #64424
Colin Jacobs 1
Participant
@colinjacobs1
What caused the fire?
23 February 2011 at 18:45 #64547
Speedy Builder5
Participant
@speedybuilder5
My condolances, but lets learn from it. I have an automatic fire extinguisher with a little glass vial like a sprinkler. I just have to be carefull not to bust the vial when I swing a bit of material past it. All my solvents I keep in a metal cabinet (Not fire proof, but would help delay spread of fire).

Lastly, I have itemised all my tools and put a current replacement cost by the side of each, and discussed with my insurers – left them with the list.

I hope you will have the energy to re-build – good luck
23 February 2011 at 18:50 #64549
Jeff Dayman
Participant
@jeffdayman43397
Was this a fire at your shop Colin? Could you explain a bit more, other than your question? Hope there were no injuries as a result, shame about the shop and machines though.

JD
24 February 2011 at 14:13 #64622
Colin Jacobs 1
Participant
@colinjacobs1
No it was a forum members pic on his profile. I last burnt down a workshop in 1989 whilst welding my ford escort and catching the fuel pipe.
24 February 2011 at 14:47 #64624
KWIL
Participant
@kwil
Workshop belonged to “Terryd”
24 February 2011 at 15:00 #64626
AES
Participant
@aes
Many commiserations re the fire. As Roberts says, lets learn from it.

First: They are NOT cheap, but over here you can get a “wooden” cupboard built to more or less any size you like. The sheet material they’re made from is coated with a special material which is GUARANTEED not to burst into flames until 30 mins have passed, and the door hinge/s and top/bottom/side openings are specially airtight also, so GUARANTING that the cupboard contents will also not burn for 30 mins. As a very rough example price, a 2 door cupboard of about chest height and about 80 cm/1 metre wide with 2 shelves inside (i.e. I would have though plenty for our typical solvents, glues, n paints quantities )will cost about CHF 1,000 here (thats about 670 quid). Rather more expensive than a standard metal cabinet agreed, but I emphasise that here anyway, these are custom built to order only. Perhaps you can find something simliar in UK? I don’t know exactly what the sheet “wood” and/or it’s coating is but could find out easily enough – send me a PM if you want more info.

Second: Where is your workshop exactly – within hearing distance of the house? If so 1 or more smoke detectors will be well worth while, and they’re cheap. And the battery (mine are PP3) last over a years (then the thing “feeps” at you to tell you to change battery).

Third: I do not yet do very much silver soldering , heating, etc, BUT even so, following on from my basic hand work apprentice training, ALL rags that have any oil, solvent residue, etc, etc, on them (i.e. rags that have been used once or more) go OUTSIDE the door EVERY night/at the end of a session. I was told that after grinding for example, a tiny spark can get into an oily rag and quite happily smoulder for a long time before being detected – i.e. suddenly bursting into flames.

And as already said above, a list of “everything”, with rough value is a v good idea – I do hope you are insured.

All the very best, even if the above may be “bolting the stable door after the horse has disappeared over the horizon.

Krgds

AES
24 February 2011 at 15:34 #64629
clifford taylor
Participant
@cliffordtaylor20138
I also send commiserations or is it condolances?

As AES says fire can be be generated from many seemingly innocent materials. It is not usually known that iron or steel swarf if left in a container with some form of insulating material rags or sawdust for example can spontaniously combust . This is caused by the heat generated as the metal oxidises, this heat is not noticable when it occurs in the open air but when in an unventilated container it can build up to a temperature high enough to set fire to any combustable materials particularly low flashpoint oils.

N.B. Metal swarf together with a range of combustibles is Dangerous Cargo when transported in aircraft

Krgds
24 February 2011 at 16:23 #64632
Terryd
Participant
@terryd72465
Hi All,

the fire was caused by an electrical fault apparently. At least that was the conclusion of the chief fire officer and later the forensic inspector. I lost an awful lot of stuff beside my machines, nigh on 50 years of tool collection, most of my models and two Triumph Stags for those with a long memory.

It was devastating at the time as I said I lost much more than that but at least I was well insured. Most insurance policies do not insure contents of detached buildings or have a maximum imposed, fortunately mine did not. It is worth checking your own policies and then adding up your contents, you may be surprised. Also it is worth taking a video inventory along with photographs of your tools etc. It is very hard to remember all that is lost from memory believe me.

No one was hurt and there was only minor damage to other buildings and it is now in the past. The builders have nearly completed the build and I have purchased a new lathe and milling machine and am just awaiting the handover to take possession. As you can imagine I am filled with anticipation at being able to begin with a clean sheet and design my workshop as I want.

I’d like to thank you all for your best wishes it is encouraging to have such a supportive community to work with. It is very much appreciated.

Best regards (before I get maudlin),

Terry

Edited By Terryd on 24/02/2011 16:24:19
24 February 2011 at 16:46 #64634
Colin Jacobs 1
Participant
@colinjacobs1
Sorry if I brought up bad memories, As a newbie I was curious. I photographed my tools and machinery for the insurance. I also switch everything off and pull all plugs out when I leave my workshop.
24 February 2011 at 17:04 #64638
Terryd
Participant
@terryd72465
Hi Colin,

No, the memory is there all the time, I’ve grown accustomed to it and any regrets are now over. The fault was actually in one of the fluorescent fittings apparently, I also do as you do and ensure that all electrical equipment is isolated before I leave, but my lighting circuit is connected to the security lights and alarm systems so that cannot be isolated.

I also use a fire resistant cabinet but the fire raged for over an hour and a half and it took 3 fire appliances and their attendant firefighters to control it. the central support beam of the roof was an I beam 200mm by 100 mm by 7m long which had sagged by around 300 mm in the centre and twisted by the heat. I hadn’t realised how devastating fire could be until I experienced it.

C’est la vie

Regards

Terry

Edited By Terryd on 24/02/2011 17:12:55
24 February 2011 at 18:06 #64645
Jeff Dayman
Participant
@jeffdayman43397
Hi Terry,

Not wanting to dwell upon the thread but when you mentioned fluorescent fittings a personal bad experience came to mind.

I was in my shop soon after we moved into our current home (13 yr ago) and heard a sputtering noise. I looked where it was coming from and it was a fluorescent light fixture. I walked over, just in time to see a flaming glob of something fall away from the fixture. I shut it off right away and after switching off the circuit breaker I disconnected and examined the fixture. The ballast had some sort of internal fault, got very hot, and the potting material was dripping out on fire. The potting looked bituminous in nature. After a long examination I found some date info on the fixture which indicated it had been made in the late 1950’s yet our house was built in 1983. Hmm. Called the former owners and the guy said he had purchased the fixtures used from a recycling store and installed them for extra light in the shop area. I asked him exactly which fixtures these were and immediately replaced them all with new ones and inspected all the other electrical fittings in the house. Found a few iffy items and changed them. Never had a problem since, but every year I remove the fluorescent fixture’s lenses and check the temps of all the ballasts in all my fixtures. I replace them every 5 years just to be sure nothing is breaking down over time. This is probably over the top paranoia, but I could have had a similar fire event to yours with the ballast that was dripping fire, and I won’t take a chance using old ones again.

JD
24 February 2011 at 21:40 #64654
NJH
Participant
@njh
So Terry

First, as I’ve said before, my heartfelt sympathy for your disaster but it does now at last seem that you are about to arise, Pheonix like, from the ashes. I am very impressed I suspect I might have taken up some other hobby.

So is there a way to learn something here? Not I hasten to say in the way of fire prevention but from your need to start from scratch and rebuild your hobby. You have in effect a clean slate and can plan and re-equip your workshop from scratch with the benefit of all your years of experience. I note you have your new machinery on standby and I guess that you gave some thought before ordering that but what tools and accessories do you think you will make first ? Is there any project you slaved over before that you will avoid this time? Is there anything that you could buy but would prefer to make? You are in the position of starting as a beginner but with all the experience a beginner must learn.

( I ask now as, once you get the workshop up and running, you probably wont have the time to answer!)

Regards

Norman

Edited By NJH on 24/02/2011 21:42:08
25 February 2011 at 18:55 #64678
Pete Berry
Participant
@peteberry
Hi Terry

Realy sorry for your loss, I know I would be devistated. I am in the process of renewing my insurance and would be intrested in finding a good policy.

My day job is an electrical contractor and I often inspect electrical installations. It is not unusual for control gear (chokes ect) to over heat on failure. If all circuits including lighting circuits are protected by a 30 m/a RCD the risk of fire caused by electrical faults can be redcued. I have also seen a fire caused by a vacuum used to clean up sawdust and swedish oil (used on flooring) which spontainiously combusted. Reading these forum posts reminded me that I use a vacuum cleaner to clean up swarf and any other

material which may contain oil. I must empty the cleaner after use. May be some one with experience in this subject could write an article in M.E. to help us all aviod this danger.

Regards

Pete Berry
25 February 2011 at 19:08 #64679
mgj
Participant
@mgj
That is a disaster. My comiserations.

Insurance. Walker Midgely (google them) insure modelsand workshops. I hope they are competitive.I’ve done the workshop, as well as the 3rd party for the TE with them.
12 February 2013 at 12:55 #111857
dcosta
Participant
@dcosta
Hello. Good afternoon.

Two days ago in my garage that sits beneath the residential area there was a small fire whose causes I'm not sure. Apparently started in my electric bike and the effect most notorious was the explosion of several cell lithium-ion battery in a package of 84 used on my bike. And it is in the garage which lies my workshop.
Fire fighters used practically no water. The fire produced a large amount of black smoke that much landed on all surfaces inside the garage including the lathe and milling machine. On the recommendation of the fire fighters left the windows open to vent the garage for two days.
Today found that, among others, some surfaces of the lathe and milling developed a thin, brown oxide. However the expert from the insurance company only inspect tomorrow.

Can anyone recommend me some action which could minimize the effect of oxidation on surfaces?

Thanks for any help
Dias Costa
12 February 2013 at 13:05 #111860
Michael Gilligan
Participant
@michaelgilligan61133
Dias,

So sorry to hear of your problem, caused by the electric bike.

… Lithium-Ion batteries seem to be causing major problems, worldwide.

MichaelG.
12 February 2013 at 20:57 #111913
Sub Mandrel
Participant
@submandrel
Hi Dias,

Sorry to hear of your misfortune, hopefully you haven't had to face a dissater on teh scale of Terry's.

If it is just thin surface rust a phosphoric acid based product like Jenolite might convert it to harmless staining. Test an inconspicuous area first!

Neil
13 February 2013 at 10:58 #111956
Ian S C
Participant
@iansc
Just check that it is rust, it may be residue from the smoke, and not rust at all. What ever, most frustrating. Ian S C
1 May 2013 at 17:36 #118258
dcosta
Participant
@dcosta
Hello!

Nearly three months late:
To MichaelG: Thanks. Now I already have a new bicycle (a KalkHoff) fitted with a pack of LiIon batteries. I can only hope they behave correctly.
To be true not me neither the assurance company are sure the LiIon batteries were the cause or the effect…

To Neil: Thanks.
I did nothing on the machines until the assurance company decided to replace them. Now that they did so, perhaps I can try something.

To Ian: Thanks.
No it's not smoke. It's brown and there are small pits in some places under the brown powder (this rust is like a powder).

Following the fire in my workshop, two months ago, I am currently looking for a new lathe and a new milling machine.
Previously I had (still have covered in rust …) a lathe Emco Compact 8 and a milling machine Optimum BF 20 Vario.
My search for substitutes so far produced a lathe Warco WM250V–F and a milling machine Warco WM–16 Variable speed mill, but I'm open to alternative suggestions.
Does anyone can share any thoughts with me and so help me in chose?

Thanks in advance
Dias Costa

Edited By dcosta on 01/05/2013 17:37:02
14 July 2013 at 21:44 #124576
dcosta
Participant
@dcosta
Hello all,

Finally I was free from the insurance company procedures to take care of the machines (lathe, milling machine and band saw) after the fire that I had in my garage / workshop associated with my bicycle equipped with motor and lithium ion battery. The machines were about 10 meters from the bike, which burned completely, and became covered by a dark powder which then mixed with the oil that covered the sliding surfaces which are those that truly matter.

Before the fire, the milling machine table had a shiny and smooth surface .
Following the cleaning I did today with turpentine and propanol, the table milling stayed covered with a light brownish patina in some areas and I would like to clean it. Apparently there is no rust on the table.
Can anyone please tell me how to remove the patina or give me some clue that I can follow?

Thanks in advance
Dias Costa
15 July 2013 at 12:15 #124610
Ian S C
Participant
@iansc
I wonder if the fire crew used a fire retardent, and if so is that effecting the shiney metal surfaces. I had a wee look on google, and from what I see it is quite possible, they sometimes use Anhydrous Ammonia, this could combine with the oil on the metal, and it would be corrosive. The warnings say to avoid galvanised surfaces, copper, brass, bronze, mercury, gold and silver, a corrosive reaction will occur. Ian S C

Edited By Ian S C on 15/07/2013 13:33:45
15 July 2013 at 12:49 #124614
dcosta
Participant
@dcosta
Hello Ian,
The fire was very localized and almost the only container cell lithium-ion battery and the rear of the bicycle were completely burned.
Firefighters did not use water or any other chemical.
Because the garage door is almost impermeable to the passage of air, the combustion was very limited and therefore the fire didn't spread.
Every lithium ion cell exploded and produced a very dense black smoke that firefighters extracted with a gasses extractor machine that worked for almost two hours, and everything became black inside the garage. All non protected ferrous surface became rusted if not protected by oil or paint or chrome and even aluminium surfaces show some reaction.
In some areas of the surfaces the mix of oil and black particles (?) formed a paste easily removable with a sheet of paper towel, leaving the underlying surface with the color altered.

Thank you for your help
Dias Costa
15 July 2013 at 13:54 #124619
Ian S C
Participant
@iansc
Just had another look, one of the problems with some of the no name batteries is contamination with metal particles during manufacture, these can cause internal shorts, demolishing laptops, and cell phones when they are charging. I didn't look long enough to find out if the residue from the burned battery will attack metal surfaced. Ian S C
15 July 2013 at 14:00 #124621
colin hawes
Participant
@colinhawes85982
I have seen severe fire damage to a lathe and it's surroundings caused by a magnesium alloy swarf catching alight. Colin
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