SX2P Gas Strut Modification Issue?

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SX2P Gas Strut Modification Issue?

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  • #499382
    Dr_GMJN
    Participant
      @dr_gmjn

      All,

      Today I was trying to spot-face part of my Stuart 10V cylinder casting with a 6.5mm slot drill. I was using the fine feed wheel. The slot drill grabbed, and damaged the casting. Luckily it's not an issue this time, since it's invisible and I was eventaually able to complete the process successfully. This is not the first time it's happened when drilling or using a mill which requires z-feed, and one day I will end up scrapping a part becasue of it.

      I have a theory that the gas strut conversion I made to the mill is causing this issue: I think the strut is slightly over-compensating for the weight of the head. This means that when I'm using the z-feed, all the (considerable) backlash in the rack is pretty much uncostrained, and allows the haed to be pulled down by any slight grab of whatever tool I'm using (drill, slot drill etc).

      I think the head is almost balanced, giving no significant upward or downward residual load on the rack. Effectively I've ended up with a free-floating z-axis. I did try an experiment by moving the head downwards, letting go of the wheel (or lever) and then manually pushing down on the head. Every time, it moved down by what seemed to be the backlash amount with a thump.

      Is it likely that this is what is causing the issues I'm having whenever I'm doing a process where I can't lock the z-axis?

      If so, can anyone suggest the remedy (without buying another strut!).

      Thanks!

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      #19967
      Dr_GMJN
      Participant
        @dr_gmjn
        #499386
        HOWARDT
        Participant
          @howardt

          I have a gas strut assembly I built into the column, it over compensates and I have no trouble but I nip up the gib to stop the head from moving. Photo in my album. If the head moves too freely then it is likely to snatch.

          #499415
          Dr_GMJN
          Participant
            @dr_gmjn
            Posted by HOWARDT on 03/10/2020 20:39:37:

            I have a gas strut assembly I built into the column, it over compensates and I have no trouble but I nip up the gib to stop the head from moving. Photo in my album. If the head moves too freely then it is likely to snatch.

            Thanks. If I had some residual weight on the rack and pinion, the worm drive fine feed should pretty much eliminate any downward free play. Trouble is I’ve currently got the opposite, which I think is making life very difficult for any work involving z-feeds.

            #499416
            Dr_GMJN
            Participant
              @dr_gmjn

              I wonder if I could temporarily load the feed handles downwards to eliminate the lash, then use the fine feed?

              #499424
              oldvelo
              Participant
                @oldvelo

                Hi

                The gas strut needs enough power to push the head up to the top with with the fine feed disengaged and the lock slackened off.

                Fit "Air Spring" to counter weight of mill head 24 kg rated is the one I have fitted to a much modified X2 mill.

                z-axis 15.jpg

                If the castings you are spot facing is Çast Iron, Bronze, or Brass you need an end mill with the cutting edges backed off to 90deg to prevent the end mill from diving into the castings. The piddly little hand wheel is a pain to use the photo shows the mods done on X2 Mill Drill

                Eric

                #499432
                Ron Laden
                Participant
                  @ronladen17547

                  What rating is your gas strut, mine is 120N and I have never had the problem you are seeing and I use the fine feed all the time.

                  I assume your head gib is well adjusted, my SX2 has the usual fine feed backlash which I keep meaning to modify but once the backlash is taken up its never been an issue.

                  #499447
                  Cabinet Enforcer
                  Participant
                    @cabinetenforcer

                    Test your theory by strapping some extra weight to the head?

                    #499458
                    Clive Foster
                    Participant
                      @clivefoster55965

                      Could the rack be shimmed out a bit to give nominal zero backlash against the drive pinion? Needs the pinion and rack to have been cut deep enough to prevent tooth tip interference tho'.

                      An (expensive) alternative would be to find a skewed rack and pinion set as used in microscope focus mechanisms which can operate with very close fits and always have proper pinion tooth to rack engagement as engagement / disengagement points for adjacent pinion teeth have significant overlap. Maybe its practical to make a set as a project.

                      Clive

                      #499465
                      SillyOldDuffer
                      Moderator
                        @sillyoldduffer

                        Posted by Dr_GMJN on 03/10/2020 20:07:33:

                        If so, can anyone suggest the remedy (without buying another strut!).

                        Thanks!

                        Not easily.

                        I think you've correctly identified the problem. Due to the strut removing most of the force needed to lift the head against gravity, backlash emerges as an issue. A weaker strut would make backlash less likely whilst making it more work to wind the head up. Fitting one is probably the easiest fix.

                        More complicated would be to fix the backlash problem. It may be the mill has a crude anti-backlash adjuster like that fitted on my lathe's cross-slide, or even something smarter. I suspect it doesn't have anything, in which case fitting a compensator or replacing the lead-screw with a CNC-style ball-screw would do the job. Or remove the strut and motorise the head.

                        All harder to do than fitting a weaker strut!

                        Dave

                        #499483
                        Ron Laden
                        Participant
                          @ronladen17547

                          Just a thought and probably unlikely but could be worth checking that the 3 allen csk screws which fix the rack to the column are tight, at least worth a check.

                          #499486
                          Roger Best
                          Participant
                            @rogerbest89007

                            frown Put a DTI on the head and touch against the bed or visa versa and pull down on the head hard – what happens.?

                            Its worth noting that you can get adjustable gas struts, if you don't know the weight of the head for sure you could fit one, and bleed it down until the backlash disappears.

                            All of this is all very well but it does rely on all your operations having the same direction of force and clearly drilling is the issue here.

                            #499509
                            Jeff Dayman
                            Participant
                              @jeffdayman43397

                              Could a second rack be bought, and both reduced in width to half, then mounted one ridgidly the other free to move a tooth width with a heavy die spring pushing on it to take up backlash at the pinion?

                              Was the slot drill that grabbed and walked out of the OP's machine mounted in a tight collet or was it in a drill chuck?

                              #499562
                              Dr_GMJN
                              Participant
                                @dr_gmjn

                                Thanks all.

                                To answer a few questions:

                                * The gas strut is rated at 150N, this is the same one used by Andrew Whale on his SX2P in his “Learning Turning” series on YouTube. Obviously the vertical component of that changes slightly with the position of the head.

                                * There’s no point lowering the head and using a DTI to see if there’s any movement – as I mentioned: I can see and hear the movement – it’s basically all of the backlash.

                                * On the last occasion the slot drill was in a drill chuck, but it’s happened plenty of times before when using a collet chuck.

                                * I’m not using modified tools, they are standard mills, drills or slot drills. I wouldn’t know how to modify them anyway.

                                Having considered all the options, a lower rated, or adjustable strut would be the best way forward. Adding weight to the head seems like the wrong way to solve the issue.

                                As it stands, it’s just wrong to have the head forced up by default. It must be detrimental to accurate work – if you have a hand feed lever, you intuitively assume it’s limiting the tool position downwards. Currently, it’s basically moving the tool to its highest limit – all bets are off in terms of where it could end up in the workpiece. I’m surprised nobody else has picked up on this potential issue. Perhaps I’ve just got the wrong strut? I wonder if I could use some scales and a bottle jack to get the actual vertical force required to balance the head, resolve it for the angle and knock 5kg off?

                                #499572
                                not done it yet
                                Participant
                                  @notdoneityet

                                  Adding weight to the head seems like the wrong way to solve the issue.

                                  Cabinet Enforcer was not offering that option as a solution to your problem – only as a means of testing your theory. Little point in changing the strut if it is not the solution.

                                  #499582
                                  Michael Gilligan
                                  Participant
                                    @michaelgilligan61133
                                    Posted by not done it yet on 04/10/2020 22:01:37:

                                    Adding weight to the head seems like the wrong way to solve the issue.

                                    Cabinet Enforcer was not offering that option as a solution to your problem – only as a means of testing your theory. Little point in changing the strut if it is not the solution.

                                    .

                                    Agreed yes

                                    MichaelG.

                                    #499586
                                    Emgee
                                    Participant
                                      @emgee

                                      Dr-GMJN

                                      Ron has stated the gas strut he uses is rated at 120N but yours is rated 150N, could that be the answer to your problem ?

                                      Emgee

                                      #499588
                                      oldvelo
                                      Participant
                                        @oldvelo

                                        Hi

                                        A lot of solutions quoted until you address this the problem will continue

                                        ( I’m not using modified tools, they are standard mills, drills or slot drills. I wouldn’t know how to modify them anyway)

                                        Higher rated Air spring will give higher resistance to the cutter being dragged into the softer metals by the cutter edge angle and maintain pressure taking out any backlash.

                                        The cutter can be modified with a Dremel grinder and back off the cutting edge to parallel to the Centre Line.

                                        Eric

                                        #499589
                                        Roy Vaughn
                                        Participant
                                          @royvaughn26060

                                          This is the latest manifestation of the Z-axis backlash problem with the old X2. An Internet search will bring up an extensive literature. The main problem is plunge cutting when cutter pull-in is a perpetual threat.

                                          Roy

                                          #499592
                                          oldvelo
                                          Participant
                                            @oldvelo

                                            Hi

                                            "As it stands, it’s just wrong to have the head forced up by default. It must be detrimental to accurate work – if you have a hand feed lever, you intuitively assume it’s limiting the tool position downwards. Currently, it’s basically moving the tool to its highest limit – all bets are off in terms of where it could end up in the workpiece".

                                            "intuitively assume" are not terms consistent with precission engineering. To hold the head from being pulled into the job and elliminate the effect of the backlash is with a higher spring pressure to have the head held firmly UP at all times.

                                            1 ) Backlash in an X2 is the clearance in the Rack and Pinion

                                            2 ) The clearance in the Worm and Worm Wheel

                                            3 ) End float on the worm to housing

                                            4 ) Clearance on the Teeth on the Dog Clutch

                                            5 ) Clearance on the Key and Keyway on the Pinion Shaft in The Dog Clutch

                                            6 ) Two Universal Joints on the Worm Shaft Drive

                                            All adds up to an excessive ammount of backlash. Around 3/4 of a full turn on my reasonably adjusted machine.

                                            Eric

                                            #499611
                                            Roy Vaughn
                                            Participant
                                              @royvaughn26060

                                              After shimming the rack on my X2 I found that most of the remaining backlash was in the end float in the worm shaft. I fitted an adjusting screw at the back of the worm shaft housing to take up the free play and it has made a considerable difference, the free movement on the fine feed wheel is down to 10 degrees or so. It is still necessary to tighten or lock the head to eliminate the the possibility of a pull-in. I also have the head biased up.

                                              Roy

                                              #499616
                                              Dr_GMJN
                                              Participant
                                                @dr_gmjn
                                                Posted by oldvelo on 05/10/2020 02:50:29:

                                                Hi

                                                "As it stands, it’s just wrong to have the head forced up by default. It must be detrimental to accurate work – if you have a hand feed lever, you intuitively assume it’s limiting the tool position downwards. Currently, it’s basically moving the tool to its highest limit – all bets are off in terms of where it could end up in the workpiece".

                                                "intuitively assume" are not terms consistent with precission engineering. To hold the head from being pulled into the job and elliminate the effect of the backlash is with a higher spring pressure to have the head held firmly UP at all times.

                                                1 ) Backlash in an X2 is the clearance in the Rack and Pinion

                                                2 ) The clearance in the Worm and Worm Wheel

                                                3 ) End float on the worm to housing

                                                4 ) Clearance on the Teeth on the Dog Clutch

                                                5 ) Clearance on the Key and Keyway on the Pinion Shaft in The Dog Clutch

                                                6 ) Two Universal Joints on the Worm Shaft Drive

                                                All adds up to an excessive ammount of backlash. Around 3/4 of a full turn on my reasonably adjusted machine.

                                                Eric

                                                Thanks Eric.

                                                What I meant by "intuitively assume" is that if I move a lever of handwheel in a certain direction, I assume that I'm moving the tool in a corresponding direction and setting a hard stop wherever I leave it. I'm assuming that it's not an arbitary position that can then move further under load. It has nothing to do with how I approach precision engineering (not that I pretend to be much good at it at present anyway), but more how I expect a tool to work. I agree that it's not possible to do consistent precision work like this, which is why I'm trying to solve the problem.

                                                I don't think adding yet more upward load is the best solution, for a couple of reasons:

                                                1) The magnitude of the extra load required to resist all likely downward loads generated by cutting is difficult to determine, and would effectively have to be a guess, erring on the high side – which is definitely not a phrase I'd associated with precision engineering!

                                                2) It adds unecessary load on all the mechanisms resisting the weight of the head, and makes the hand lever and fine feed wheel stiffer and more difficult to use – Instead of using gravity to advantge, I'd be fighting against artificial load.

                                                The backlash is annoying in term of feel, but I have a DRO, and use that for getting positions. So if the z-position was to a hard stop downwards, backlash would be irrelevant. It's also not relevant for any operation where I can lock the head.

                                                A further assumption in all this, albeit one that seems valid from the simple checks I've done, is that the fine feed worm wheel drive is not back-driveable (further external down-load won't turn the worm gear). Any further downward movement of the head once set would be due to deflections (bending) within the machine.

                                                #499618
                                                Dr_GMJN
                                                Participant
                                                  @dr_gmjn
                                                  Posted by Michael Gilligan on 04/10/2020 23:07:54:

                                                  Posted by not done it yet on 04/10/2020 22:01:37:

                                                  Adding weight to the head seems like the wrong way to solve the issue.

                                                  Cabinet Enforcer was not offering that option as a solution to your problem – only as a means of testing your theory. Little point in changing the strut if it is not the solution.

                                                  .

                                                  Agreed yes

                                                  MichaelG.

                                                  Apologies – I realised that, I was just thinking (or writing) out loud in terms of possible solutions.

                                                  #499619
                                                  Dr_GMJN
                                                  Participant
                                                    @dr_gmjn

                                                    Here's a video, which will hopefully work if you click on the image:

                                                    There must be about 5mm -10mm of movement after setting the depth.

                                                    #499740
                                                    oldvelo
                                                    Participant
                                                      @oldvelo

                                                      Hi

                                                      Lets put all contradicting assumptions to one side they are the basis for misunderstanding and cause for many major disasters.

                                                      The plan in mind is to deal in facts only and avert such happenings.

                                                      The 5 mm 10 mm backlash that you demonstrate in the video is explained in my posting 1) to 5) Which is easily moved by light finger pressure this also allows a cutter that has not had the excessive lead backed off to drag the head down when machining Cast Iron, Bronze, or Brass.

                                                      The Worm Wheel does actually turn slightly as the clearances are taken up in this order 1) 5) 4) 3) 2) with a single start worm it is normaly self sustaining.

                                                      Perhaps the answer "using gravity to advantge" would be to add a 5kg-8kg weight to the cutting head to take out all the backlash when the head is being lowered and remove the weight when you need to raise the head.

                                                      Eric

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