You think you have trouble starting your car on a cold morning?

[Nigel Graham 2Participant @nigelgraham2]

I was once on a Norwegian caving holiday that included a week in a remote village on the side of Tysfjord, more than 100 miles N of the Arctic Circle. The village had not even a rough track to it, but was served by a daily ferry.

At the road-head were a number of ordinary cars, notable only for each having a short mains lead and plug dangling through the front grille, presumably for sump heaters, we thought.

Some probably belonged to employees of a sawmill much further up the fjord, staying in accommodation there during the week and travelling home for weekends. Warm in Summer (we were there in August), but grim commuting in Winter, with the added worry that your car might not start when you return to it after several days in the cold! For if those mains-leads were for sump-heaters there was nowhere obvious at that place to plug them in.

The fjord ferry could carry only passengers and small amounts of loose cargo, but near the village jetty were a farm-tractor and an old Commer van. How they had been delivered there, I have no idea.

[Grindstone CowboyParticipant @grindstonecowboy]

Used to use a Ronson blowtorch to warm the intake manifold on my Mk 1 Escort on cold mornings (and a few quick blasts onto the carb as well, even though I knew it was a daft thing to do).

Rob

[Steve NeighbourParticipant @steveneighbour43428]

The English Electric class 50 engine would appear to have an issue with the fuel pump causing over fueling.

This causes unburnt fuel to ignite in the blower fans, some will also pass in to the sump which can dilute the oil.

The driver should have shutdown the start sequence as soon as it happened

[John RandallParticipant @johnrandall96767]

The starting issue with class 50 and. All English engines of the 1960’s Is that the pistons shrink in cold weather and grip there piston rings thus allowing fuel into the sump and sump oil out via the exhaust valves. Creating a smog of large proportions until the engine has warmed up and the rings come out to contact the cylinder liner. Locomotives that are fitted we pre heaters as many are now do not have the issue!

[noel shelleyParticipant @noelshelley55608]

Small diesels will tend to have a comperssion ratio of 22/1 ! Heater plugs are good but a thermostart is better. As they get bigger the compression is lower, I have 4 15L V8s to keep running, the ratio is about 16/1. They were fitted with both a heater plug and ether injection from new. I have both disabled. If its cold a 4kg propane bottle and torch work wonders, or the burning rag trick ! Noel

PS then there was the ford transit YORK, tow start was the best bet !!!

Edited By noel shelley on 16/02/2021 23:20:59

[not done it yetParticipant @notdoneityet]

The problem with ether is that it detonates, cracking the piston rigs – because they were too loose in the ring grooves. Hence what they called “addiction”. It wasn’t really – the engine was just requiring an overhaul already and the ether just made things worse, even faster.

[Sam StonesParticipant @samstones42903]

It might be more fashionable to replace those diesel engines with a cluster or two of Tesla batteries.

Just turn a switch and away you go.

Sam

Wash your mouth Sam !!!

Edited By Sam Stones on 17/02/2021 02:44:45

[Howard LewisParticipant @howardlewis46836]

My brother was Transport Manager for Tarmac at Ettingshall in Wolverhampton. The fleet was Fordson ET6 and 7s The ET6s had been converted from 32 hp petrol V8, to Perkins P6, so that they were like the ET7s. The P6 was a good engine but the Areoflow combustion system had a large surface to volume ration, so KiGas was obligatory for a cold start. The MD had a centrally heated garage for his car. So in winter, after he had left, one of the tippers was left there overnight. Once started it tow started one of the others, and then there two available to tow start the rest of the fleet.

Some fenland framers built concrete ramps and parked the Fordson E27N tractor at the top, ready for a bump start next morning.

The Ford 4D and 6D engines were D I s and were superb cold starters.

In the CAV cold chamber the fitters had rubber faced table tennis bats, so that if a Thermostart misbehaved, or the engine tried to run backwards (Not unknown ) the bat went over the air intake and stifled the fire.

If a vacuum governed engine started running backwards, you had to have the courage to open the throttle wide. Leaving it closed merely pushed the control rod over to full fuel. Trying to stall by engaging the clutch in top gear with brakes full on would sometimes split the gearbox casing! And all the oil from the oil bath air filter was blown out and over everything!

The Perkins Prima in the Montego and Maestro, and as the Industrilaa500 Series, would start unaided at -5C

Scrape the frost off the screen, crank and drive away!

Now the ECU takes care of everything, heater plugs and all!

Howard

[Pete WhiteParticipant @petewhite15172]

Posted by Howard Lewis on 16/02/2021 19:44:26:

Didn't think that Land Rovers had excess fuel (No production DPA provided it) My Sries 2 relied on heater plugs. Substituting a CAV Thermostart which heated the ingoing air with a flame much improved cold starting!

Howard

Yes, you rember correctly Howard, but as I said I had fitted a 2.2 BMC diesel, used in alot of taxis, which had an in line pump. Slowest thing on the road around these parts, except for milk floats. The heater plugs in those series 2 engines were wired in series, if one failed you had no chance !

We will be talking frozen fuel on a cold journey next, cured by a heated filter housing, which was a joy at last adaption .

I have enjoyed this thread, lots of fond? memories.

Pete

[magpieParticipant @magpie]

I bet he is glad it hasn't got a starting handle.

[Dave HalfordParticipant @davehalford22513]

Posted by Pete White on 17/02/2021 10:07:47:

We will be talking frozen fuel on a cold journey next, cured by a heated filter housing, which was a joy at last adaption .

I have enjoyed this thread, lots of fond? memories.

Pete

Gallon of petrol in a full 10 gallon tank stopped fuel waxing back in the day before winter diesel happened.

Still remember the news report back in 63 showing all the trucks stuck on the A1 in a blizzard, each one with a little fire under the fuel tank.

[noel shelleyParticipant @noelshelley55608]

Gentlemen, since someone has mentioned cranking handles ! My mother at the time a young woman in her 20s, had command of a searchlight unit in or around London in 1944. The power was supplied from a 4 cyl lister diesel. There wasn't even a water pump on it let alone a dynamo, on cold nights these young woman would crank start this large engine !!!! Just imagine asking the office girl to crank up the standby genny after a power failure nowadays. Even using the decommpressors, all 4 of them !!!

If you have a £2 coin with St pauls cathedral and the V of 2 searchlight beams on VE night, raise your glass in a toast to those young folk who fought for the freedom we now enjoy . Her team was 1 of the 2 choosen to do the job .Noel.

[Howard LewisParticipant @howardlewis46836]

I've seen an AEC Matador started by two chaps with a piece of rope attached to the starting handle.

Fortunately, it was a good starter.

On the RHDR so much Easy Start had been used on the 2 cylinder Dorman in the Simplex, that you had a job to get it going in the summer. Having wound it by hand with the decompressors, after two attempts, it was time for someone else to takeover.. The flywheel was more than 2 feet in diameter and carried a huge clutch to match. By the time that you had wound that up to your maximum speed, you were breathing heavily!

If you ere quick with the decompressors, it would fire up and coat your feet with a thick layer of soot.

Eventually, it was replaced by a Perkins 3.152 which had electric starting; BLISS!

Howard

[Ron LadenParticipant @ronladen17547]

I am surprised after switching on the start the driver got out of the cab and left it unattended, is that allowed..? I would have thought not but maybe it is.

[V8EngParticipant @v8eng]

Posted by Ron Laden on 17/02/2021 12:59:07:

I am surprised after switching on the start the driver got out of the cab and left it unattended, is that allowed..? I would have thought not but maybe it is.

I would not stay close to that thing let alone sit in the cab!

[Howard LewisParticipant @howardlewis46836]

It was the Deltics, apparently that would "Get a leg out of bed" I was warned by one operator.

Despite 18 cylinders, they were only about the length o the average 6 litre 6 cylinder truck engine.

Just shows what you can get from a pressure charged two stroke The EMD loco engines are huge in comparison, 700 in^3 (11,2 Litres) per cylinder and with upto 20 cylinders, turbo charged, no wonder that they can deliver 4,000 hp!

Howard

[duncan webster 1Participant @duncanwebster1]

Posted by Pete White on 17/02/2021 10:07:47:

Posted by Howard Lewis on 16/02/2021 19:44:26:

…….

Yes, you rember correctly Howard, but as I said I had fitted a 2.2 BMC diesel, used in alot of taxis, which had an in line pump. Slowest thing on the road around these parts, except for milk floats. The heater plugs in those series 2 engines were wired in series, if one failed you had no chance !

……..

Pete

My friend had one like that, with the exhaust coming out through the wing to a silencer mounted up the side of the windscreen. It used to glow red hot going up long hills (slowly as you say)

Edited By duncan webster on 17/02/2021 19:07:30

[Andy StopfordParticipant @andystopford50521]

I used to own a Commer Q4 and replaced the (very thirsty) petrol engine with a Perkins P6. I didn't have a KiGass pump so I had to make one, guessing at the working dimensions. It worked fine, though I made the mistake of not bothering to figure out a mechanism to lock down the plunger when not in use and relied on a separate screw down valve to shut off the line from pump to manifold. On occasion I would forget to do this, and the engine would suck the reservoir dry, resulting in bad words being said the next time I tried to start the thing from cold.

Although very, very slow, noisy and vibratory with the P6, it used half the fuel and had an important safety advantage: in it's petrol-powered days, I'd been appalled driving it one hot summer night at the height of the Portuguese forest fire season to see showers of sparks being ejected from the exhaust on downward gear changes, straight into the tinder-dry roadside vegetation…

[Steve NeighbourParticipant @steveneighbour43428]

Posted by Sam Stones on 17/02/2021 02:43:26:

It might be more fashionable to replace those diesel engines with a cluster or two of Tesla batteries.

Just turn a switch and away you go.

I think you'd need a LOT of batteries to shift 400 tons of train

[Sam StonesParticipant @samstones42903]

I’m just being mischievous Steve.

To add to my tomfoolery … with the engine already the right colour, each carriage could carry a ton of Tesla’s too!

Where there is no overhead supply, the batteries could be inductively charged from magnets between the rails, while regenerative braking would be a spin-off.

Not very efficient I'd guess, but who cares about efficiency anymore?

OK, I’m going.

Sam

[Bill DawesParticipant @billdawes]

I remember back in the 60s still living with my parents in Brum being woken up every morning by a builder trying to start his Ford Cortina estate, it just churned over and over for what seemed eternity. From that day on I have always contended that Ford were pioneers in long life batteries.

Bill D.

[Sam StonesParticipant @samstones42903]

Also in the 60’s Bill, my first vehicle was a Morris minivan. By the late 60’s I got really posh and bought a neighbour’s Ford Anglia. Neither were garaged so winter starts in the north of England could be a bit exasperating.

However, I learned something you can’t do on modern cars.

Parking the vehicle for the night while the engine was still hot and running, the trick was to pull the choke at the same time as turning off the ignition.

It hardly ever failed to produce an instant start the following morning.

Sam

PS Cold starts have never caused me a problem where I now live.

[Nicholas FarrParticipant @nicholasfarr14254]

Hi Sam, I also learnt the trick about pulling the choke out, always worked. Of course, on modern cars don't have that facility.

Regards Nick.

[Mick B1Participant @mickb1]

You can almost smell the particulates… <cough>

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

Posted by Sam Stones on 19/02/2021 19:33:14:

Also in the 60’s Bill, my first vehicle was a Morris minivan. By the late 60’s I got really posh and bought a neighbour’s Ford Anglia. Neither were garaged so winter starts in the north of England could be a bit exasperating.

However, I learned something you can’t do on modern cars.

Parking the vehicle for the night while the engine was still hot and running, the trick was to pull the choke at the same time as turning off the ignition.

It hardly ever failed to produce an instant start the following morning.

Sam

PS Cold starts have never caused me a problem where I now live.

I fitted a manual choke to the VV carb on my cortina, later fitter a twin Weber off a transit

The other strategy was to rev up and cut the power. Not recommended for diesels.

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