Workshop – indoors or outdoors

[Adam MaraParticipant @adammara]

Just a word of warning! My eldest daughter has a Victorian house with a large cellar, last year there was a cloudburst locally and the drains could not cope, leading to a flooded cellar, ruining the freezer, fortunately my son in law's extensive wine collection was not at affected!

[Swarf, Mostly!Participant @swarfmostly]

If it were me, I'd research the local geology before committing to the cellar. What is the local sub-soil and at what level is the water table during the wet season?

'Tanking' has been mentioned – I'm sceptical about the efficacy of tanking on the inside of walls & floor, the water pressure from outside can push it off.

Back in the late 1800s & early 1900s houses in some districts were built with 'stock' bricks which are porous. The walls were often built with no damp-proof course but with air bricks and a large ventilated space was left beneath the lowest habitable floor. While there were often pipes and cables down there, it wasn't intended as a cellar. The idea was that damp rising up the walls by capillary action would evaporate from the surfaces of the brickwork and be removed by the ventilation in preference to proceeding further up the walls to the inhabited floors of the house.

A friend of mine was helping clear the cellar workshop of a deceased neighbour. It seemed to be dry. He encountered a piece of paper into which had been inserted several very small (e.g. #61 – #80 ) twist drills, as is often done with sewing machine needles. Over time the paper had acquired enough moisture to completely rust through the drills at the points of contact!

Best regards,

Swarf, Mostly!

Edited By Swarf, Mostly! on 26/02/2019 13:33:09

Edited By Swarf, Mostly! on 26/02/2019 13:33:39

[not done it yetParticipant @notdoneityet]

The possibility of damp has been mentioned. It may be more damp in the summer than winter if the boiler keeps it dry (and is not used in the warmer month)s.

It is likely to be cooler in summer (if the boiler is not on!) in the summer than in a separate workshop (without extra ventilation).

My workshop is constructed within a sectional concrete garage.It is relatively cool in summer with more than 100mm of insulation all around and over. Lighting is not a real problem – mine has no natural lighting if the door is closed.. Flourescents are old hat these days what with the risk of strobing, sometimes delayed striking, short tube life, starters that fail monotonously, etc.

A dehumidifier for the cellar may be cheaper to run in the summer months, if necessary, than heating a separate workshop in the winter months.

There are so many facets to this dilemma that only the OP will be able to make a rational choice. The thread title should have been a simple discussion of pros and cons – not which (each of us) should/would choose (it may well have been worded that way, anyway).

5 x 4 foot is a hole not a cellar! Other points seem to have been covered, I think.

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

Posted by Bill Chugg on 26/02/2019 13:21:22:

Neil

It is big enough – by twenty foot square I meant 20 feet by 20 feet.

Bill

[Howard LewisParticipant @howardlewis46836]

The cellar sounds really good.

Large, kept warm by the boiler, (assuming that it provides hot water during the summer months, as well as central heating during the winter).

It will provide ventilation, to keep humidity low (as long as the floor is above the water table in the "monsoon" months.

With access through the house, and the only access through the cola hole, it should be secure.

This should present few problems, as long as it is possible to carry machines / models through the house, or lower / hoist through the coal hole. Obviously the latter needs to be weatherproof!

You can site as many lights as you think that you will need, and where they will be most useful..

As for the size, I am envious!

Howard

[RMAParticipant @rma]

Posted by Swarf, Mostly! on 26/02/2019 13:30:41:

If it were me, I'd research the local geology before committing to the cellar. What is the local sub-soil and at what level is the water table during the wet season?

'Tanking' has been mentioned – I'm sceptical about the efficacy of tanking on the inside of walls & floor, the water pressure from outside can push it off.

Back in the late 1800s & early 1900s houses in some districts were built with 'stock' bricks which are porous. The walls were often built with no damp-proof course but with air bricks and a large ventilated space was left beneath the lowest habitable floor. While there were often pipes and cables down there, it wasn't intended as a cellar. The idea was that damp rising up the walls by capillary action would evaporate from the surfaces of the brickwork and be removed by the ventilation in preference to proceeding further up the walls to the inhabited floors of the house.

A friend of mine was helping clear the cellar workshop of a deceased neighbour. It seemed to be dry. He encountered a piece of paper into which had been inserted several very small (e.g. #61 – #80 ) twist drills, as is often done with sewing machine needles. Over time the paper had acquired enough moisture to completely rust through the drills at the points of contact!

Best regards,

Swarf, Mostly!

Edited By Swarf, Mostly! on 26/02/2019 13:33:09

Edited By Swarf, Mostly! on 26/02/2019 13:33:39

Tanking definitely works, I've done it. Of course you have to survey what's there first and assess the damp/water problem, if any, but as I said before, check the humidity even though the walls may appear to be dry.

There are several modern methods, one of which can be applied wet to stem an actual flow of water entering the celler. Others made of plastic are easy to install and will impede further ingress into the cellar and drain any water into the floor area where it's absorbed back into the original floor and subsoil. That is the type I installed and very effective it was too. You would have to check what loading it would take regarding heavy machinery, but I installed 22mm water resistant chipboard flooring and dry lined the walls….result perfect! I doubt if you would be able to install very heavy machinery due to access, but I would think all the hobby type machines would be fine.

My cellar suffered badly following heavy rain, but tanking solved that problem as well. Dehumidifiers don't actually cure the problem, they alleviate the effects of the problem, and I wouldn't risk expensive machinery. The humidity is still there albeit reduced somewhat, but should the dehumidifier stop for any reason, power failure or tank full of water when you're away, you're back to square one!

[brickyParticipant @bricky]

When tanking was done the method my firm used was to concrete on top of the floor layer and brick line the walls to keep it in place.As for radon gas fortunes are now being made by companies manufacturing products to combat this.How do the powers that be come up with any proof of anyone contacting cancer ,houses have been built for decades on granite and limestone.

Frank

[Sam Longley 1Participant @samlongley1]

In spite of bituthene tanking with a 100mm brick wall against it on the inside I still had leaks especially when it rained. It did not help that the void on the outside where the hole was dug for the basement was backfilled with hardcore.I would regularly get 150mm of water in the basement before I fitted the sump pump.

Fortunately I had fitted a sump & could fit a Stuart sump pump with float switch

My solution was to drill holes right through the wall at 700mm centres around the perimeter about 150mm above floor level. I inserted 19mm plastic pipe in each one & sealed with polyurethane mastic. I connected the pipes to a ring pipe & fed it to the sump.

At the start, when it rained water poured in, but not through the walls as the pipes relieved the pressure. After a couple of years the pipes rarely ran with water as it seems that it had reduced the water pressure considerably. One original mistake was just to pump the water out on to the ground. This was a mistake as it went straight back down to the walls. Once I connected it to the main drain it was OK.

 

Edited By Sam Longley 1 on 26/02/2019 19:02:42

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Posted by bricky on 26/02/2019 18:22:22:

…

How do the powers that be come up with any proof of anyone contacting cancer …

Frank

Unusually high rates of lung-cancer are obvious in Uranium miners and those who process the ore. There are enough victims to eliminate other causes (like smoking) and statistically establish the level of risk of cancer from a given level of exposure to Radon.

Youngsters living in a Radon risk area should definitely avoid lurking in poorly ventilated cellars. Working in a nice cellar wouldn't worry me though – once you reach a certain age, something else is more likely to get you first!

Dave

[V8EngParticipant @v8eng]

Posted by Steambuff on 26/02/2019 10:33:38:

Posted by V8Eng on 26/02/2019 10:05:02:

Whilst not wanting to rain on anyone’s parade, I will say that probably you need to discuss the matter of using a cellar for this with your Insurance Company first.

If you must talk to your insurance company, I would call it a "Craft Room" …. Insurance companies don't like Workshops!

Dave

 

I think you will find Insurance companies do not take kindly to being misled either, honesty is best when dealing with insurance otherwise you could actually be uninsured.

Edited By V8Eng on 26/02/2019 20:18:03

[GordonHParticipant @gordonh]

My insurance company (NFU Mutual) would only cover an outbuilding to a maximum of £10,000, but would happily cover engineering equipment over that value in my garage which is integral to the house.

Gordon

[Colin WhittakerParticipant @colinwhittaker20544]

Someone mentioned radon gas …

A comment from a research scientist colleague in Boston, USA.

Radon gas has always been present in a lot of Massachusetts basements but the cancerous effects were swamped by the far bigger risks from smoking. Now that smoking is much reduced it is becoming possible to detect the epidemiological cancerous effects of radon gas.

And at an even greater tangent, chemical engineers have the worst life expectancy of all professional engineers, so keep those workshop solvent containers well sealed.

Edited By Colin Whittaker on 27/02/2019 02:34:05

[Chris Evans 6Participant @chrisevans6]

My house built in 1860 suffers damp , now mainly cured with damp proof substance injected in to brickwork and waterproof rendering on the internal walls. My Daughters house of similar age has a large cellar and until a few years ago remained dryish but always fusty and slightly damp. 10 years ago local land was developed and the cellar now floods heavily, so much that a pump has been installed rendering the cellar unuseable.

[Howard LewisParticipant @howardlewis46836]

The method used on damp church walls, above ground, was to drill blind holes into the wall, inclined downwards towards the outside. Into these holes were then inserted unglazed earthenware pipes. The moisture passed through the unglazed pipe, evaporated, and fell out of the lower end of the pipe.

May help anyone with an above ground shop with masonry walls, who has damp roblems.

Howard

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