Which chuck to buy for first lathe ?

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Which chuck to buy for first lathe ?

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  • #196419
    Neil Wyatt
    Moderator
      @neilwyatt

      I agree 100% with Norman. A 3-jaw gets you up and going, you will know when you need a 4-jaw and the extra spend won't seem so bad because you've already started getting enjoyment out of your kit.

      Plus, if you want to save few bob, it's relatively easy to make a 40-jaw or get good results from an old one.

      When you need 100% concentricity, turn things at the same setting.

      Neil

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      #196427
      Vic
      Participant
        @vic

        1: 3 Jaw SC

        2: 4 Jaw Ind

        3: Collet Chuck

        4: 4 Jaw SC

        Number two is a necessary "evil" and number four is nice to have if you can afford it. Most of my work is done on the 3 Jaw SC but Collet Chucks are very handy to have and nice to use.

        #196439
        John Haine
        Participant
          @johnhaine32865

          Yes start with a 3 jaw which will probably come with the machine. But don't be afraid of the 4 jaw, if you have a dial indicator setting up work is really quite simple and doesn't need an apprenticeship and years of practice.

          #196445
          Bowber
          Participant
            @bowber

            3 jaw for most work- a good one is better

            4 jaw ind for odd work, easy to set up once you get the knack but DTI needed – old or cheap ones are ok as they don't tend to get worn out unless really abused.

            Collet chuck for small accurate work.

            Face plate for the rest cheeky

            Steve

            #196451
            Brian John
            Participant
              @brianjohn93961

              UPDATE : I have just spoken to the company which sell this Optimum lathe. There is no face plate, steady or 4 jaw chuck available for this lathe. The salesman also said these lathes are not good for turning steel and only 0.1mm can be taken off at a time if turning hard metals.

              Taking 0.1mm off at a time does not worry me but I really need a faceplate. I am having a look at the internet now but I am not seeing anything. It looks like another option bites the dust ! Whatever I buy I will stick with the 3 jaw chuck.

              #196454
              clivel
              Participant
                @clivel
                Posted by Brian John on 10/07/2015 16:39:00:

                The Sherline lathes cost twice as much. A few people did say that they were not all that good but I think they were biased towards the Sieg machines.

                Have you considered the Taig (known as the Peatol in the UK), many people consider them to be as good as the Sherline but considerably cheaper.

                Clive

                #196459
                Brian John
                Participant
                  @brianjohn93961

                  I had not even heard of Taig…thank you very much. There is an Australian website which I am looking at now. At first glance they seem to be imperial machines made in the US with no metric version on offer.

                  **LINK**

                  Edited By Brian John on 11/07/2015 08:41:47

                  #196462
                  Gas_mantle.
                  Participant
                    @gas_mantle

                    Hi,

                    I'm very much a novice but can honestly say I have no problem centering in a 4 jaw independent, it's like anything if you stick at it you soon get better at it. After a 10 – 20 goes you start getting a feel for how much of a turn on the chuck key corresponds to the dial indicator reading.

                    One little tip I have found is that when taking work out of the 4 jaw, if the next work piece is the same diameter (or very close) then release by using only 2 adjacent jaws then when you put the next piece in simply tighten up the same 2 jaws and if you are careful you will be very close to the same centre.

                    In my case the chuck has a makers mark between 2 of the jaws so I just loosen and retighten the jaws either side of the mark.

                    Peter.

                    Edited By Peter Nichols on 11/07/2015 10:10:38

                    #196465
                    Andrew Hutchinson
                    Participant
                      @andrewhutchinson12802

                      Hi,

                      I'm hesitant to post given the thread drift but since the OP is interested in the Taig and Sherline I'll lay out some of my opinions since I have both and use both regularly.

                      The Sherline chucks are definitely better quality but they also cost two to three times as much as the Taig chucks. The Sherline 3.1" 3 jaw that I have is a better all round model engineering chuck than either of my Taig scroll chucks(3 and 4 jaw). Being harder It feels much more positive when setting than the Taig chucks which I believe have a 12L14 scroll and having nice clean hardened jaws the Sherline grips stock very positively. Out of the box the Taig comes with aluminum soft jaws which make tapping without slip very very difficult. It is a compounding problem because each time it slips you have to readjust which wears the tommy bar holes, the scroll and in all likelihood knocks the part out of alignment – mine never seem to cinch up quite the same even right after cleaning. The Taigs are very good economical chucks if you have a lot of common parts to face – just bore out the jaws and away you go. My 3 jaw started out around .003" TIR and the 4 jaw around .001". The three jaw is about .003 -.004" and the 4 jaw about .002" with wear but it depends on the diameter being held. As I mentioned before, they are a bit spongey so some care is needed to ensure reasonable repeatability. I can't remember the last time I checked my Sherline 3 Jaw but I imagine it is about .002" . The main thing is that it is more repeatable and feels firmer. You get what you pay for.

                      The OP indicated not being interested in a 4 jaw at this time but I would caution anyone interested in purchasing a Taig for model making without a 4 jaw simply because the 3 jaw lacks the gripping power necessary. Apologies if the lathe is not intended for model making. The Taig 4 jaw is in my opinion a pretty decent offering and despite it's relative cheapness is much closer in performance to the Sherline 4 Jaws. The adjusting threads are much coarser which takes a little getting used to but it holds well, has good range of offset, deep jaws and is well made. The taig with three jaw was my first lathe, purchased for making N scale bits, and was mostly a frustrating experience until I got the four jaw.

                      As lathes go the Taig is intended for folks who want to tinker with lathes or use else use it in a manner consistent with it's features. It has a larger swing which is handy and it has higher speeds and lever fed tailstock which I'm told are very useful for lapping/cutting certain work pieces. The carriage rack is very handy for rapid repositioning. Where it becomes a more frustrating machine is when you need calibrated feeds and slower speeds. When you have a single lathe 500 RPM is far too high a bottom speed and making accurate parts (especially as a beginner) more or less relies on there being a full compliment of leadscrews. I got by with dial indicators and repurposed inside mics but eventually cracked and started in on adding a leadscrew. Just after I started in on the project I got a used Sherline for $200 USD at a model engineering show in the states which sort of shelved the project for the time being.

                      The Sherline is a very different animal. It is definitely pricier – I doubt I would have a lathe at all today if I had had to buy one new – just too much for a student to afford. That said they are worth every penny. The system they have works and works well for the limited envelope they are intended for. If you have the coin they can be arrive and drive machines. Smooth and powerful variable speed DC drive, quality screws on all feeds, screwcutting (essential in my books) great tool /work holding options (MT1 bore/8 mm collet adapter), better, if slightly funky topslide than the taig ( which has a poor retention mech) , a cross slide/ boring table almost twice as large as the Taig, etc, etc. The downside for me would be the tailstock which is not adjustable unlike the Taig. I'd prefer to have the same taper in both to open up the options for common accessories rather than having MT1- MT0. They do make a range of offsets to combat the potentially misaligned tailstock ram. I use them when drilling small holes where the drills tend to break off if not centered. Much more work to set up but with the screw feed I'm much more comfortable feeding .006"-.015" drills than handbombing in the Taig's lever feed where they bounce, bend and often break in my hands.

                      I'm in no way dumping on the Taig – in the right hands they are fantastic machines ( http://modelengines.info/lathes/taig.html for John Bentley's work) but in my hands that will have to wait a while (if ever) for full implementation. In the meantime to encourage compatability across platforms I've bored out the headstock to Mt 1 to take advantage of the Sherline 8 mm collet holder and made an adapter for the Sherline topslide. I mention this in case you get a used Taig for a song and want more functionality otherwise I would get it all as a Sherline package and just use it if that is your intention.

                      Cheers,

                      Andrew Hutchinson

                      Surrey BC Canada

                      #196468
                      Ajohnw
                      Participant
                        @ajohnw51620
                        Posted by Brian John on 11/07/2015 08:39:16:

                        I had not even heard of Taig…thank you very much. There is an Australian website which I am looking at now. At first glance they seem to be imperial machines made in the US with no metric version on offer.

                        **LINK**

                        Edited By Brian John on 11/07/2015 08:41:47

                        Before getting excited they come with a health warning. Only really suitable for light work. A problem in that area is that they will take substantial cuts with a decent tool but the head may distort spoiling the initial accuracy which is surprisingly good. They claim that to be better than 0.0005in all round. It was on mine, easily. By that they mean taper and roundness of work. It also pays to watch out for swarf getting on the rack and keeping it clean while working. Also to have plenty of stub drills about above a certain size due to the limited centre distance. A stub drill be the way is one that has been reground so many times it's a lot shorter than it was.

                        Talking this area in general I advised a friend not to buy a baby lathe but to go for the mini. Completely ignored but several months after buying one he wished he had listened. The main reason he didn't buy the mini was weight. Odd really as they aren't very heavy at all. People get concerned about shed floors and all sorts of things. Might pay to bear in mind that a typical shed floor will stand some one weighing well over 100kgs standing on it. The thicker kitchen work surfaces ( about 30mm thick) make decent benches and with a bit of sensible support can even take a vice and have stuff hammered to death in it. smiley My boxford mostly rests on a really old ply kitchen unit. Draws and doors still open perfectly and for it's size that is a very heavy lathe. My miller sits on top of some office type steel draws, the type that come in two forms shallow or deep draws. The miller weighs over 100kg. wink actually that is part supported by the kitchen unit as well. I packed up some 3/4 ply so that it rests on both the kitchen unit and the steel draws, had to as the draws are only about 300mm wide.

                        John

                        #196469
                        Michael Gilligan
                        Participant
                          @michaelgilligan61133

                          Andrew,

                          Very useful to see a comparison by someone whio has both machines.

                          Thank You

                          MichaelG.

                          #196473
                          Brian John
                          Participant
                            @brianjohn93961

                            Thank you all for the wonderful advice. The two things I do not like about the Taig are the aluminium jaws and the lack of a metric version. I would definitely buy the Optimum lathe but for the fact that they do not have a face plate for it. I am very surprised at this.

                            #196475
                            Ian S C
                            Participant
                              @iansc

                              Brian, would not worry too much about the face plate, you can at a later date make your own, just as I made a back plate when I bought a smaller 4 jaw chuck for my lathe (orginal chucks 8", new one 6&quot. I got a lump of hot rolled steel, 9" dia x 2" thick, and carved it out of that. The hardest part of the job was carrying the bit of steel home, it was "bl****" heavy, it came from scrap from a profile cutting shop.

                              Ian S C

                              #196478
                              Vic
                              Participant
                                @vic

                                As said, it's easy enough to make a suitable face plate. A possible source of supply is to modify a face plate intended for a wood turning lathe. These are commonly available at reasonable prices.

                                #196480
                                Bowber
                                Participant
                                  @bowber

                                  You may find the spindle nose is the same as another make of lathe and you can just buy a faceplate for that lathe. They do all seem to be based on each other.

                                  Steve

                                  #196482
                                  Ajohnw
                                  Participant
                                    @ajohnw51620

                                    The aluminium jaws on the Taig 3 jaw are adequate and have the rather nice advantage that they can be machined – the whole idea of using aluminium. Soft steel jawa are available for most what might be called real chucks for the same reason. Aluminium has the advantage that it's less likely to mark work and it still grips as well as a chuck of this type would be expected to. Better than many would expect as a lot of leverage is available when it's tightened via the bars. I'd rate it as a very good light scroll chuck and as mentioned earlier if the machine it is on is turning dead true it's not that difficult to get it to hold items with better accuracy than many collets. The usual problem with machining chuck jaws is that errors in the machine make them bell mouthed – not a good idea at all. The jaws of a chuck need to be parallel to very fine limits.

                                    It's 4 jaw is excellent and rated for the speed the lathe can run at. A few people have mounted them on mandrels so that they can be held in the 3 jaw chucks on larger lathes to save changing chucks.

                                    I feel the main problem with the lathe is head distortion made worse because they also do riser blocks for it to increase the swing. These are really intended to allow people to lightly turn certain scale loco wheels but they also allow the lathe to handle much larger jobs. This for instance

                                    spherometer.jpg

                                    An unfinished base for a spherometer turned from solid with cuts of a size that many probably wouldn't believe but I did grind up a tool just for this job. The rather heavy chamfers were put on by angling the same tool. It was held in place with a 5/16 bsw draw bar against the face plate. This work did distort the head a little but a near 3/4 inch cut using a form tool on one side of a V pulley about 3 to 4 in dia on mild steel under repair distorted it more than I would be prepared to put up with. The swarf was microscopically thin. It is possible to shim the heads up with aluminium foil to correct this but the roundness spec would not be so good as it was.

                                    Apart from this laughand not being able to see the lathe very often when there is that much aluminium swarf about they are pretty good lathes. If prepared as suggested in the instructions the slides can also be set on the tight side allowing silly cuts like the 3/4 inch one via a very very slow hand feed. Should add as far as using the rack for feeding on these lathes I didn't really have any problems. During training I wasn't allowed to use power feed for a long time so it was just a case of getting used to the rather small handle. No power feed – we were expected to be able to work on lathes with damaged feed mechanisms if asked to. It's also quicker in some ways as no need to mess with setting for various roughing and finishing cuts.

                                    Centre distance is a serious limitation though but I would suspect that with the rest of it's kit that it is perfectly possible to completely make a certain size of scale loco on them. The vertical slide, chuck and lathe will easily handle 3/8" end mills at full depth if they are sharp. Peatol used to take them along to model engineering shows and turn mild steel bar away for demo's. If he still does I suspect many would be surprised by the size of cuts he takes.

                                    laugh My last use of the lathe was for this. The fit of the rear bearing on a Boxford is often too tight. I sold it mainly because of space problems but have bought a Pultra that take up more space as it's handy to have another but small accurate lathe about.

                                    Odd I can't see the image when I try to add this particular photo.

                                    No matter more amusement than relevance really

                                    John

                                    I'd better add that full depth for an end mill is the same as it's diameter where I come from.

                                     

                                     

                                    Edited By John W1 on 11/07/2015 13:06:16

                                    Edited By John W1 on 11/07/2015 13:06:47

                                    #196484
                                    Brian John
                                    Participant
                                      @brianjohn93961

                                      The Taig machines do not seem to come fully assembled. That is okay if you know what you are doing but I feel that this is a bad choice for a first lathe. The Optimum still looks the way to go. The Sherline lathes are twice the price.

                                      #196488
                                      Ajohnw
                                      Participant
                                        @ajohnw51620

                                        Personally I think that the most important thing a first lathe buyer really needs to spend some time on is just what they want to make on it. Sizes. precision etc and reach a decision based on that.

                                        As a for instance one of the very major reasons for Myford's fame is all of the bits and piece of work shop equipment that have been designed to be made on them including other complete machines. Things like rotary tables and dividing heads of the quality that can be made are very expensive – they also give people something to make. Many started that way and then used the equipment to make other things, frownMyfords have had bad effect on some designs. More sales of certain castings if they are slimmed down to fit their rather short gap. These days and also in many other cases in the past people didn't bother with castings and fabricated instead so the same sort of items can still be made but the lathe used needs certain features to perform some operations.

                                        Make? Difficult. Because a machine is handled by a German company, Optimum and manufactured in China doesn't really mean that it has to be better than others. Looking at Optimum's catalogue statements like uses P5 precision hardened taper bearing on one lathe does mean something. A 9um run out on the spindle nose doesn't really mean anything that is of any use. The important thing is the axial alignment of the spindle with the bed. P5 might mean run of the mill bearings or even refer to a standard no one uses. I've not checked.

                                        John

                                        #196828
                                        Brian John
                                        Participant
                                          @brianjohn93961

                                          Here is another brand I had not heard of before : Real Bull.

                                          **LINK**

                                          Although more expensive than the others it does come with everything including two steadies and both three and four jaw chucks. To my eye it looks very well finished.

                                          NOTE : The Taig lathes do not seem to come assembled. You have to put them together yourself. The motor is also a separate purchase which seems quite odd.

                                          Edited By Brian John on 15/07/2015 14:17:38

                                          #196845
                                          martyn nutland
                                          Participant
                                            @martynnutland79495

                                            Hello Again Brian

                                            I've been thinking about your desire for a four jaw independent chuck and what we've been saying on the subject, especially apropos the difficulty of centring work that we beginners experience.

                                            I don't want to speak out of turn here and not for a moment suggest bad practice but if your heart's set on a 'four independent' and the budget will run to it, this has helped me and might help you. (As I've said, I find trying to centre a four jaw independent a considerable pain, although I can now just about do it.)

                                            Buy a self-centring tailstock chuck, the Jacob's variety (like a drill chuck) are cheapest and will take a workpiece diameter of up to about 16mm. Centre your stock in that, offer it up to the four jaw independent, and clamp on. Then test with your newly acquired dial indicator! Simples! I know, I know the shortcomings in both chucks, the tailstock etc etc can lead to discrepancies but for most day-to-day work is that a real problem?

                                            If you want to go the 'extra mile' on cost you can now buy a self centring scroll chuck for the tail-stock (about £65 sterling) and use the same principle, but it will give you a much greater capacity for a workpiece than the Jacob's variety.

                                            No doubt I will be shot down in flames on this one, but it might just help.

                                            Happy Days.

                                            Martyn

                                            #196847
                                            Frances IoM
                                            Participant
                                              @francesiom58905

                                              “Here is another brand I had not heard of before : Real Bull.” – sold in UK under Warco badging – one ‘gotcha” is that the lead screw cannot be disengaged nor direction changed wrt chuck – hence the cover needed for some models which apparently leads to possible problems as only 1 half nut but more importantly can’t it seems do LH threads

                                              #196850
                                              clivel
                                              Participant
                                                @clivel
                                                Posted by Brian John on 15/07/2015 14:17:09:

                                                NOTE : The Taig lathes do not seem to come assembled. You have to put them together yourself. The motor is also a separate purchase which seems quite odd.

                                                The prices charged by Taig Australia seem to be rather excessive, especially as they only seem to supply the lathe as a kit.
                                                The US site offers the lathe factory assembled including power-feed for $319US or as a kit for only $171US **LINK** those prices don't include the motor or for some strange reason the tail-stock which is available separately for $43.

                                                The advantage of having the motor as a separate item, is reduced shipping costs and more flexible choice for the end user who may prefer for example to fit a variable speed DC motor.
                                                It is a pity though that Taig does not offer a metric version of the lathe.

                                                Clive

                                                #196877
                                                Steven Greenhough
                                                Participant
                                                  @stevengreenhough56335

                                                  Frances

                                                  I have what I think is a Real Bull, sourced from SPG. There is a lever on the back that has three settings for the leadscrew, forward, neutral, and reverse. This is in addition to being able to reverse the chuck rotation… Is this what you mean or is there an element of screw-cutting (something I’ll happily admit I haven’t even attempted) that needs features beyond this?

                                                  #196881
                                                  Frances IoM
                                                  Participant
                                                    @francesiom58905

                                                    Steven – yes but no such lever on my Warco WM180 which is made by them (possibly adapted to Warco’s spec) – I note by review of WM250V in #231 MEW that it has such a mechanism – reversing chuck rotation is no use unless you can also reverse leadscrew – if leadscrew was also easily unlocked from chuck rotation then an external motor and or handle could be added

                                                    #196886
                                                    Steven Greenhough
                                                    Participant
                                                      @stevengreenhough56335

                                                      Frances – Ah I think I see what you’re getting at. My lathe is designated as CJ18, which in warco-speak is the mini/super mini, roughly, with a few differences. I think the Amadeal lathe is the same basic unit too?

                                                      Strange that the lower end machine has a facility that a higher does not?

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