What’s the best way of telling a poster he’s wrong?

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

It's not unusual to see posts on the forum that – putting it politely – have quality issues.

I'm not concerned about spelling, grammar, punctuation, jargon, or people who aren't naturally good at writing. I'm not offended by the '" Proud to be Politically Incorrect", (even though it's usually just tactless bad manners), or by people who do not share my perspective on life. Nor am I worried about chaps occasionally getting the wrong end of the stick, missing the point, or giving clumsy answers that have to be decoded.

What I am concerned about is posters giving ill-considered, out-of-date, inappropriate, ignorant, foolish or incorrect advice. There are examples of this due to not bothering to read earlier posts in a thread, failure to check facts, leaping to conclusions, over generalising, ignoring evidence, prejudice, 'dog with a bone' syndrome, contrary opinion based on limited personal experience, 'what some bloke told my grandad', brand-name blindness, the rose tinted past, and – fortunately rarely – deliberate trouble making.

My question is how best to challenge such posts. Sometimes I really do happen to know better, and there are many other posters on the forum with obvious expertise in their own areas who must have the same itch. I don't think it's fruitful to contradict people, deny them fellowship, start flame wars, challenge their sanity, or even use the phrase 'With Respect".

What would your advice be?

Dave

PS. Am I guilty of daft posting myself? Yes, but I'm trying to do better, honest!

PPS The question is gender specific because I've not noticed any ladies misbehaving on the forum, ever.

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Etiquette

[richardandtracyParticipant @richardandtracy]

My suggestion would be to quote the post you feel is wrong and say:

'Sorry, I cannot agree with you for the following reasons:

1. Point 1
2. Point 2
3. Point 3 etc

As a result I don't think a great deal of weight should be accorded to the advice given therein.'

It is a simple, relatively inoffensive, way of correcting misleading opinions. It is subject to explosion from the person replied to, but then what are moderators for, if not to moderate such exchanges? This advice is coming from a moderator on the world's largest fountain pen site where we've had to deal with similar sorts of issues and have slowly found this approach corrects those willing to learn and the explosions rapidly eliminate those who are not.

Regards,

Richard.

[Tony Pratt 1Participant @tonypratt1]

Dave,

It's difficult apart from a simple 'you are wrong' statement followed with facts perhaps to back it up? I do try to give considered & correct advice/statements but it's obvious a lot of people on here don't take this attitude, very confusing to budding engineers.

Apparently quite a lot of forums are like this, just like real life.

Tony

[John RuddParticipant @johnrudd16576]

Posted by SillyOldDuffer on 24/01/2017 12:33:51:

It's not unusual to see posts on the forum that – putting it politely – have quality issues.

My question is how best to challenge such posts. Sometimes I really do happen to know better, and there are many other posters on the forum with obvious expertise in their own areas who must have the same itch. I don't think it's fruitful to contradict people, deny them fellowship, start flame wars, challenge their sanity, or even use the phrase 'With Respect".

What would your advice be?

Dave

Dave,

I, like yourself, have a level of expertise in my own field of engineering( Control and Instrumentation)…. I offer advice on the basis that it is "as offered but in good faith". If someone wants to contradict me, then fair enough. I have the outlook that life is too short to engage in confrontation/arguement/dispute. I cannot force them to accept what I say or write…

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

Posted by SillyOldDuffer on 24/01/2017 12:33:51:

What would your advice be?

My advice is to speak up in as civil a manner as possible.

In future the moderators are probably going to be a bit less tolerant of 'disruptive' posting, especially where it starts to veer towards trolling or 'trouble making' even if it doesn't blatantly break forum rules.

Neil

[Roderick JenkinsParticipant @roderickjenkins93242]

I'm sure Richard has the right answer. I've been guilty, more than once, of being just plain wrong on this forum. I hope I've accepted that with good grace. Dealing with posters who refuse to accept that they are wrong in the face of good evidence and continue to justify their position in ever longer and rambling replies are more difficult to deal with – I guess we just have to accept it. There are bores in every society but it is difficult to wander off if one wishes to continue on a forum.

However, having said that, recent international events seem to suggest society has changed – the truth now belongs to whoever shouts loudest and longest:: facts, evidence and experts are worthless

Good luck with the future everybody,

Rod

[MWParticipant @mw27036]

I think in reply to S.O.D, the best way is to keep to the facts, everyone on here can speak up, it's a privilege that we have this forum, not a right, so they should remember that and respect it.

There has been some flusters in the past, but theres also plenty of grown up, friendly folks, who have defined the forum, long may it continue.

Michael W

Edited By Michael-w on 24/01/2017 13:26:28

[Martin KyteParticipant @martinkyte99762]

Perhaps accusing them of using 'alternative facts' might work.

:0)

Seriously though, I know I misunderstand stuff sometimes but I do always post in a spirit of helpfulness rather than to trying to appear superior. Attitude is the most important thing. We are all doing this for fun after all.

regards Martin

[Mark CParticipant @markc]

The problem is always going to be distinction between "opinion" "experience" and "theory".

Most will have an opinion, many might have experience and others may have been trained in the theory but the three may sometimes be in conflict. This then comes back to the original question and probably moderating might be the answer but this assumes the moderator has the "correct" answer in terms of all three; opinion, experience and theory….

Mark

PS. Otherwise the moderator just becomes a combatant in the argument (with unfettered power of edit) ?

Edited By Mark C on 24/01/2017 13:48:15

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Although it does not directly address the opening question … I would encourage all 'posters' to publicly acknowledge their errors and 'learning points' .

The debate may be interesting and amusing; but the conclusions should [wherever practical] be clear.

MichaelG.

[Rick Kirkland 1Participant @rickkirkland1]

Add to experience, opinion and theory the term ‘Fact’ If things are dealt with in a factual way we cannot really go wrong. I recently tried giving fact based advice on these forums after a couple of years of simply leaving them to stew and hoping things improved. Things haven’t improved. We still have people without a blinkin’ clue asking for help and receiving bad, incorrect and downright dangerous advice from others without a blinkin’ clue. As soon as I see the name John S on replies to posts I immediately know it’s going to be a case of ” Bang ! That’s it, chapter and verse, the way it is. Then some knowall comes along and has a go at disputing Facts by using personal opinions. Once more, I’m reading posts and replies and apart from the few on here that know their stuff, the rest cause me to feel abject despair and I simply give up and shut up. It really makes me wonder if these online forums are more hindrance than help to newbies. Probably because when I was learning lifes lessons we had books to reference and people who knew what they were on with and proved it by tangible means. And while we’re on the subject of answers to questions, I’ll refer to the Jacobs chuck thread. MANY years ago my father was in possession of paperwork from the chuck manufacturer clearly giving use and care instructions. One of these was to gently use ALL THREE KEY HOLES to fully tighten the chuck.
I just wish I had that leaflet now to upload here for the knowalls to read and digest. Even then one of them would come back with their own opinion. There’s always one.!

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

Posted by Mark C on 24/01/2017 13:46:14:

This then comes back to the original question and probably moderating might be the answer but this assumes the moderator has the "correct" answer in terms of all three; opinion, experience and theory….

The Moderator Job Description requires the IOU qualification:

Infallible

Outspoken

Unfalsifiable

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

Posted by Michael Gilligan on 24/01/2017 14:50:15:

Although it does not directly address the opening question … I would encourage all 'posters' to publicly acknowledge their errors and 'learning points' .

The debate may be interesting and amusing; but the conclusions should [wherever practical] be clear.

MichaelG.

But ask yourself, if any thread on here ever had a concise and accurate summing up, what are the chances of it remaining the final comment? (Especially with me around).

Neil

[Mark CParticipant @markc]

Rick, the problem then becomes choosing between the facts and alternative facts as indicated by Martin!

Mark

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by Rick Kirkland 1 on 24/01/2017 14:58:45:

I'll refer to the Jacobs chuck thread. MANY years ago my father was in possession of paperwork from the chuck manufacturer clearly giving use and care instructions. One of these was to gently use ALL THREE KEY HOLES to fully tighten the chuck.
I just wish I had that leaflet now to upload here for the knowalls to read and digest. Even then one of them would come back with their own opinion. There's always one.!

.

I wish you had that leaflet too, Rick !!

To date I can find no evidence of its existence.

MichaelG.

[Martin KyteParticipant @martinkyte99762]

In the case of someone asking a question and I speak from having done it a couple of times, the subsequent posters take on the thread are of secondary importance. You generally get a bunch of replies across the whole usefulness range and really it's up to the one asking the question to separate the wheat from the chaff. Generally the question is of a practical nature and the original poster then goes and sorts their problem out. At that point the correctness of the answers are practically assessed and usually you get a post that says 'well so and so worked'. Most of the rest of the posts are shooting the breeze so you read what you like and forget the rest. About the only time you really need to shout is when someone proposes something that is very definitely hazardous.

regards Martin

[John ReeseParticipant @johnreese12848]

Mark C,

I think you overlooked "FACTS". If someone makes an error in factual data (like water runs uphill) I think it best to politely point that person to a reliable reference source where he can see for himself where he is in error.

As to opinion and experience I think people will differ according to their experiences, tools, machines, and facilities available, and training. It seems unlikely two people will see a challenge in the same way. The choices we make in how to approach a job are highly personal, almost as personal as how we choose an automobile or a wife, I can respect someones opinion of how things should be done while holding a much different opinion. As long as one can explain the differences politely and rationally there should be no conflict. There are those who hold strong opinions that are not based on fact or experience. In that case the best approach is silence.

Theory is a potential fact that is unproven. Not much else needs to be said.

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by Neil Wyatt on 24/01/2017 15:02:53:

Posted by Michael Gilligan on 24/01/2017 14:50:15:

Although it does not directly address the opening question … I would encourage all 'posters' to publicly acknowledge their errors and 'learning points' .

The debate may be interesting and amusing; but the conclusions should [wherever practical] be clear.

MichaelG.

But ask yourself, if any thread on here ever had a concise and accurate summing up, what are the chances of it remaining the final comment? (Especially with me around).

Neil

.

I have asked myself that, Neil … and the chances are near zero

Which is exactly why I tried to "encourage all 'posters' to publicly acknowledge their errors and 'learning points' " … The conclusions don't need to be concisely and accurately summed-up … they just need to be evident to anyone reading through the thread.

MichaelG.

[Tractor manParticipant @tractorman]

If I had dropped a clanger I would appreciate being told I had. I ask questions here to learn and take all advice in the spirit it’s given. I would only be really upset about advice which might be dangerous to the recipient I. E. Stand in a puddle while you test your electrics in the shop.
It is hard to tell someone they are wrong tactfully though so tread carefully. Some folk do go off faster than a tin of pre-war Vietnamese snoek. Lol

[MikeParticipant @mike89748]

I agree with Tractor Man: we can all learn from this forum. And just because we disagree doesn't give us licence to be rude to each other. I also agree with Roderick Jenkins. I'm sure I've been wrong on this and other forums, and, like Roderick, I hope I've had the good grace to admit it.

[GeorgineerParticipant @georgineer]

Posted by Tractor man on 24/01/2017 15:16:40:
… Some folk do go off faster than a tin of pre-war Vietnamese snoek. Lol

Eh?

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by Neil Wyatt on 24/01/2017 15:01:18:

The Moderator Job Description requires the IOU qualification:

Infallible

Outspoken

Unfalsifiable

.

One out of three being the pass-mark ?

MichaelG.

[David Standing 1Participant @davidstanding1]

'What's the best way of telling a poster he is wrong?'

That largely depends on who the poster is!

There are a couple here where you would be better saying nothing at all, no names mentioned, natch…….

With them, it would be much simpler to just go outside and bang your head sharply on the wall!

[John ShepherdParticipant @johnshepherd38883]

Thank SOD for raising this, I share your concerns.

Another thing that annoys me is when there is a post asking for advice on a particular subject or machine and they get a reply such as "I know nothing about it/ don't have such a machine, but…" and what usually follows is of no use at all.

1. Expecting moderators to take action, unless there is hostility or obvious bad practice, can be difficult for the moderators and can escalate the problem if my experience of other forums is to go by.

2. Unless I am sure of my facts or have recent experience, I would rather sit back than offer an opinion. Many things I did in my early career are now looked on as bad practice and I would rather learn from that than say 'we always did it that way and no harm resulted from it'.

3. Why must people get on the bandwagon as soon as Health and Safety is mentioned? Most of the time we are not concerned with not playing conkers, just helping with good practice so that many of us can continue with our hobby with our hands and eyes intact.

4. A recent thread on Consumer Units was a good example of some misguided information. A good case if there was one of understanding the subject before replying and a need to point to some independent up to date evidence and regulations.

So

5. If you don't agree with a post or the advice it offers, perhaps it is best to explain why and offer evidence rather than wading in with an opinion or comments like ' in all my years as a professional xyz we never did it that way'.

6. Humour can be a good let out but often it is misread, so use it carefully, especially if it is directed at an individual.

7. From John Reese: 'There are those who hold strong opinions that are not based on fact or experience. In that case, the best approach is silence.' This is the stance I usually take and it results in non-contribution rather than taking part, but if we had a more open forum it would be better for everyone.

8. I have been close to canceling my subscription to this forum because of some of the comments, so please can we all realise what is wrong and make sure that the tremendous amount of good information is not diluted and make it a happier place to visit.

John Shepherd.

[Author]

Posts