what do you use when designing?

[Mark P.Participant @markp]

I will do a rough sketch on a piece of paper of what I am making. Then maybe alter thing as I go. Have tried CAD but didn’t get on with it.

[MuzzerParticipant @muzzer]

I have to say I don't think there's anything wrong with Onshape at all, it's just a question of what you think you fancy getting up to over the next few years. If you think you might get into 3D CNC machining, or surface modelling you might be better off investing your time in Fusion. If it's mainly 2D and 3D drawings / assemblies, Onshape is probably fine to stick with. I was concerned myself at the costs incurred in the obvious CAM options such as Sprutcam and was delighted when firstly Autocad gave away the 2.5D add-in for Solidworks and then the Full 3D Monty with Fusion.

As I mentioned, many of the add-ins for Onshape are 3rd party and they are all expecting a subscription model, much like Onshape itself, even if the main product itself is free for hobby users. Certainly it's got a lot going for it in comparison to the likes of other "mid range" products like Solidworks or even Geomagic.

[JonParticipant @jon]

Still do mine by pen and paper on back of fag packet.
By the time drawn in cad etc could have done the job right which often cant visualise on screen and why so many mistakes made.

[John McNamaraParticipant @johnmcnamara74883]

Autocad using the 3D solid modelling features works for me. I am also working my way through Fusion 360.

An Autocad methodology I have found very useful:

I make each part as a separate file (right down to fastenings in separate files), then I create empty files that I insert the links that link the parts together and position them into assemblies, and these assemblies may be positioned into into bigger assemblies and so on. It takes a little discipline to do this in the beginning but in the end it becomes second nature.

Beginners make the mistake of creating one file with many solid model parts in it, This makes editing tedious, and unnecessarily difficult and the program slows for larger projects. If you right click on a linked part you can open the containing file by right clicking this will open the part file it in a new window where you can edit it than save close you will land back in the assembly window.

It can be frustrating learning 3D once learnt you will not know how you lived without it.

Fusion 360 is rather different from Autocad. the editor uses a different paradigm to Autocad, and Autocad can't directly create G Code for CNC machine control. On the other hand Autocad can work with huge projects incorporating Buildings plant and machinery in 2 or 3D this Fusion cannot do, I would hate to try to design a complex building or house with it. However Fusion's editor is better at creating sculpted 3D shapes for say ergonomic furniture a telephone handset or car bodies.

Autocad is expensive (there are student versions available)
Fusion 360 is free for non commercial use by individuals. (Check the web site for details)

I have no connection with Autodesk maker of the above programs apart from being a User.

Oh and I still have pencil and paper for brainstorming an idea!

Regards
John

[MuzzerParticipant @muzzer]

There are a couple of webinars just out on Fusion 360 that give you a pretty good feel for what is on offer (for free!). The first is a basic overview and intro, given by a Brit (so none of the "jumping in", "go ahead and" blather the Mercans seem unable to avoid spouting).

And for those interested in the CAM capabilities, there's a Lars Christensen webinar. He's a nice guy who does very watchable videos but has lived in the US for some years and has been infected by the "go ahead and" virus. However, as you can see, the HSM CAM in Fusion is pretty damned good and fairly intuitive.

Yes, I'm still using Solidworks but F360 is now the focus for my hobby activities.

Murray

[ChrisHParticipant @chrish]

I learnt what was then called Engineering Drawing at school and then college, starting 55+ years ago. Being in England, it was First Angle Projection with the front and plan views on the left top and bottom – the bottom right quadrant was used to transfer construction lines from the side view to the plan. It was the only subject I did not need to revise for at exam time and still get a credit.

So, that system was installed in me and essentially a 2D system. Occasionally an isometric view was drawn which was the nearest thing I got to 3D, but never created in 3D, only ever in 2D.

Now I use TurboCad for Mac, version V.7, on my MacBook Pro 15", and still draw in 2D. I am finding it very difficult to create a drawing in 3D even though it's available for me because I have never been taught, and find self-learning this tricky, and if I could find a good book to teach me 3D then I would buy it. (Any suggestions anyone?!). Programmes for Macs are a bit limited and I am a learner who likes having written instructions readily available. So many of current softwear programmes rely on people figuring it out as they go along and learning from a few dubious on-line instructions – that doesn't work for me!

I looked at Fusion 360 but stopped when I did not see a free trial download!

So that's what I use, more or less successfully, and 2D works for me – even if many say using 3D is the best thing ever!

However, when John (25/10/2016 15:06:31) describes an AutoCad methodology of creating individual files for each part of a complete drawing and then linking them together via otherwise 'empty' files I confess to not fully understanding at all and struggling a bit with the concept. More info would help thickies like me John!

Chris

[John McNamaraParticipant @johnmcnamara74883]

Hi Chris H

A drawing file is simply a container in a particular format that allows you to place drawing objects in it. These objects can be basic lines and arcs or more complex objects like a 3D solid model. Additionally many CAD programs allow you to place a link to other files, when you do this the drawing objects from that file are placed at the point in the current drawing you specify. The Cad program sorts out the details, all you have to remember is that you are actually using more than one file to create your drawing. This is a hierarchic system that uses a top down methodology the top level master file can contain many levels below it.

There is no requirement for a file to contain any drawn objects most do but not all need to, I find it useful to use certain files to contain assemblies of parts but not any drawn objects.

Lets think of a simple example, say a basic lathe:

First make an assembly file called "_Main Lathe" it will not contain any directly drawn objects.

Then create a drawing file called "Bed Casting" in this you would draw the 3D Bed casting
This file would be inserted into the main file as a link,
Whenever you open the main file you would see the bed but to edit the bed you would open the bed file, that would also change what you see the next time you opened the main file.

Thinking on a lathe
Next we create an assembly file with no directly drawn objects in it that contains links to parts that relate to the saddle. this file will also be linked to your main file allowing you to position the saddle on the bed.

Next we create an assembly file linked to the saddle file with no directly drawn objects in it that contains links to parts that relate to the cross slide.

Next we create an assembly file linked to the cross slide file with no directly drawn objects in it that contains links to parts that relate to the top slide.

I like to group parts that move together in assembles and sub assemblies. this makes moving groups of objects very easy.

Before you start a project sketch out on a piece of paper where assemblies will be useful and where various parts will be placed.

I like to make every part in a separate file. No exceptions If I am going to make that part, purchased parts can be drawn as is. Editing a single object on the screen is far easier than working within complex mechanisms.

After a while you will have a library of many parts, You will find it extremely valuable, the parts represent many hours of drawing time and the can be reused in other projects.

It is best to place all the parts of a project in a single directory and to make all the linkages within assemblies to files within that directory, a copy of files that you have set aside for your parts library should be placed in that directory.

Regards
John

[Ady1Participant @ady1]

So, who always works from drawings? And who flies by the seat of the pants much of the time?

I would love to fly by my pants all the time but I have been trying to draw things up a bit more, mainly so the same space isn't occupied by two parts at the same time, and partly to make design ideas easier to picture

I still use Designspark mechanical 1 because it does the basic 3D design and dimensions in XP without any fuss

Not been getting much done in recent months though, which is frustrating, too many other commitments

[ChrisHParticipant @chrish]

Hi John,

Many thanks for your comprehensive reply – the method is much clearer now and seems more simple and straightforward than I had imagined,

I must try and work up a simple project using your method and see how I get on with it.

Chris

[SpurryParticipant @spurry]

Chris H

Being from the Engineering Drawing era, and a fellow user of TurboCad, have you tried using the blocks and symbols depending on the complication of what you are trying to draw? Using blocks seems to work in a very similar way to using separate files as described by John M above.

Pete

[John McNamaraParticipant @johnmcnamara74883]

Hi Spurry

Being an Autocad user I cannot speak for Turbocad, Autocad also has the ability to make blocks, they were all that was available in early versions, when is started using it I used blocks a lot however they have a number of limitations the first on being that the block editor does not offer the functionality if the standard editor. Working in 3D you want all the tools at your fingertips.

Also as your CAD abilities improve you will find that making a full 3D representation of a complex mechanism the lathe I mentioned or maybe a steam engine, you generate quite large files, the speed of the program slows with large projects as it has to recalculate and draw all the objects on the screen; fine if you just want to view the main file if it takes a second or two to draw but annoying if you are editing. By using separate files you are only working on a small part of your project editing will be really fast.

Blocks or separate files? Creating a new drawing for a new part in Autocad is trivial, just type qnew in the command line, give it a name and save. Open it and start creating your part. (It is good discipline to locate a known point on your part at 0,0,0 in 3D space) then when you place the part in the assembly file you have an accurate reference point. To me the limitations of blocks outweigh any benefits.

Strangely most of the CAD books I have read do not cover the file structure very well, Annoying really I wasted a lot of time until I developed the methods I use every day.

Regards
John

Edited By John McNamara on 27/10/2016 23:49:19

[SpurryParticipant @spurry]

Hi John

That's an interesting point you make, as you work in 3D. I had suspected that Chris was only working in 2D, as I do, creating his drawings in much the same way we were taught at school, but using that setup/layout on a computer.

I've used Tcad since v2, now using v18 (which is not the latest incarnation) and am still trying to find the new locations for menu items that the programmers deemed fit to move around from where they were in the previous version.

For most of my work, the drawings in 2D convert to DXF files for my CNC machine, and work well. There are advantages in 3D which would have been very useful for my current project – a table with the legs at a compound angle. It is an extremely steep slope to climb, to learn the 3D aspect though, so will make-do without it for the moment.

Pete

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Posted by Hopper on 21/10/2016 23:55:42:

I'm wondering also, how many people always work from a drawing when making something on the lathe or mill, and how many "work it out as we go along"?

…

So, who always works from drawings? And who flies by the seat of the pants much of the time?

Edited By Hopper on 21/10/2016 23:58:11

Thinking about 'seat of the pants' people, I've been wondering if they really exist? Apart from the rare true bodger that is.

My feeling is that those who seem to make it up as they go along are actually demonstrating experience and training rather than raw 'out of the box' talent.

Concert pianists make tinkling the ivories look easy. Hitting notes in the right order on a Joanna turned out to be very difficult when I tried it myself. Now I suspect that real pianists practice in secret…

Dave

[Ady1Participant @ady1]

On the non-software side I use a desktop and tablets of various types but I always use a 5 button Microsoft intellimouse for these things, which has a wheel for zooming in and out

I used to play gaming stuff years ago and found it to be the best most reliable mouse I ever used

[Gary WoodingParticipant @garywooding25363]

Posted by ChrisH on 26/10/2016 20:11:16:

Now I use TurboCad for Mac, version V.7, on my MacBook Pro 15", and still draw in 2D.

I looked at Fusion 360 but stopped when I did not see a free trial download!

So that's what I use, more or less successfully, and 2D works for me – even if many say using 3D is the best thing ever!

However, when John (25/10/2016 15:06:31) describes an AutoCad methodology of creating individual files for each part of a complete drawing and then linking them together via otherwise 'empty' files I confess to not fully understanding at all and struggling a bit with the concept. More info would help thickies like me John!

Chris

Hi Chris,

The Fusion 360 you download is the free trial. If you can truthfully confirm that you meet the requirements then the free trial period is extended to a year, after which you renew by asserting that you still meet the conditions. This continues indefinitely.

TurboCAD for MAC is a very different animal to TurboCAD for Windows. I've been using WinTC for years and can create a usable 3D model faster than I can draw something on the back of an envelope. That being said, there is no doubt that it's 3D facilities are very cumbersome when compared to systems like SolidWorks and Fusion 360. So much so, that I'm now gradually switching to Fusion.

I think that John's comments about having a single Assembly file and several Component files is referring to the way that SolidWorks likes to work. You have to define how the components fit together in the assembly, but after that, any changes to components are reflected automatically in the assembly.

Fusion refers to this way of working as "Bottom Up". You can run both TC and Fusion that way, but unlike SolidWorks, there is no way that changes to Component files are reflected in the Assembly.

Both TC and Fusion prefer what Fusion calls "Top Down". All the components are usually created in the same file where they are assembled using various supplied tools. I find the "Top Down" method more intuitive.

As mentioned above, TC is capable of creating very accurate and detailed 3D models, but it's user interface is very crude when compared to SolidWorks or Fusion. On the other hand, TC is very good at creating 2D drawings; currently far better than the current version of Fusion (I don't know about SolidWorks).

Another plus for Fusion is that all updates are automatic and free.

[Gary WoodingParticipant @garywooding25363]

Posted by Spurry on 28/10/2016 10:15:49:

Hi John

I've used Tcad since v2, now using v18 (which is not the latest incarnation) and am still trying to find the new locations for menu items that the programmers deemed fit to move around from where they were in the previous version.

For most of my work, the drawings in 2D convert to DXF files for my CNC machine, and work well. There are advantages in 3D which would have been very useful for my current project – a table with the legs at a compound angle. It is an extremely steep slope to climb, to learn the 3D aspect though, so will make-do without it for the moment.

Pete

Hi Pete,

I too am totally disillusioned by the cavalier way that TC shuffles the tools around with no thought to logic or the long term users. (Where, for example, would you look for "Create Viewport"? It's not under the "View" menu.)

The 3D slope is far easier with Fusion 360, and it also has just about the best CAM processor available, built-in. The Help data is not good, but there's lots of useful videos available.

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

I'm playing with Fusion360 this week. (Yes it is free to hobbyists. The option appears towards the end of the standard Download process. Don't waste time looking for special Free or Trial Download options.)

I'm impressed. It's not perfect. I'm not pleased that my work is stored in the Cloud instead of on my computer, and I wish it ran on Linux, but apart from that the software does more than I need. I managed to glitch a design up twice but the software recovered gracefully without crashing.

I benefited from learning FreeCAD earlier. FreeCAD is a useful tool in itself, however there are a few problems with it:

• The multiple workbenches confuse beginners. (Part Design is the one for us, and it has to be said that the latest versions are make starting clearer.)
• It's still under heavy development and is functional rather than polished or complete. At the moment the Architectural Workbench seems to be the main focus of interest, whereas I would prefer to see more progress on the Mechanical Engineering side.
• Web advice varies from excellent to weak, in particular there's a lot of confusing out-of-date material about.
• The interface isn't as slick as it could be.
• There's no Assembly Workbench yet, so you can't do multi-part assembles or joints etc at the moment. In my opinion this is the most serious gap.

As FreeCAD Part Design has many similarities with Fusion Sketches using FreeCAD reduced my 360 learning curve. The idea that one draws a rough 2D shape, then adds dimensions and other constraints that can be changed later, then uses the sketch to extrude a 3D object was a culture shock. That the 3D object can be further modified by adding more sketches or by changing parameters takes a little getting used to. And that's before you discover that it's also possible to 'assemble' many 3D objects to make an entire machine that can be animated. The whole notion is quite a stretch for an old dog like me and for my conventional 2D mind-set the whole thought process is still uncomfortably 'upside down'.

In comparison with FreeCAD, Fusion360 benefits from concentrating on Mechanical Engineering CAD. It has numerous productivity improvements, the functionality is more complete, and the help is more polished.

I'm going to persist with it. But first, lunch and a couple of hours 'hands-on' in the garage.

Dave

[Adrian GilesParticipant @adriangiles39248]

I've used Tcad since v2, now using v18 (which is not the latest incarnation) and am still trying to find the new locations for menu items that the programmers deemed fit to move around from where they were in the previous version.

Why do they move those menu items around? I still have a version of Word 98 which is so simple to use, later versions have got harder and harder to find things on , to the point where I rarely use the program unless I really have to.

Progress?

[Adrian GilesParticipant @adriangiles39248]

Posted by Spurry, 28/10/16

I've used Tcad since v2, now using v18 (which is not the latest incarnation) and am still trying to find the new locations for menu items that the programmers deemed fit to move around from where they were in the previous version.

Why do they move those menu items around? I still have a version of Word 98 which is so simple to use, later versions have got harder and harder to find things on , to the point where I rarely use the program unless I really have to.

Progress?

[Adrian GilesParticipant @adriangiles39248]

Posted by Spurry, 28/10/16

I've used Tcad since v2, now using v18 (which is not the latest incarnation) and am still trying to find the new locations for menu items that the programmers deemed fit to move around from where they were in the previous version.

Why do they move those menu items around? I still have a version of Word 98 which is so simple to use, later versions have got harder and harder to find things on , to the point where I rarely use the program unless I really have to.

Progress?

[ChrisHParticipant @chrish]

Spurry is absolutely right, I do work in 2D creating drawings very much as I would in Engineering Drawing using a blank sheet of paper but using a CAD programme and computer screen to do it instead. That is why working in 3D is, at the moment, very alien to me. I have looked at TC for Mac with a view to creating a file hierarchy as John suggested, but I am not sure TC supports that – certainly the way forward is not clear. I might ask the TC forum the question. At the moment I just create a new folder for each project, name it, then save all the individual files in that. I've not really had the necessity to import a file into another file more than a couple of times a while back, but it seemed to work I recall. Very much still the novice here!

I then, instead of using John's file hierarchy, thought of creating blocks, as I did many many moons ago when I used to dabble with AutoCad Lite, a 1997 version I think it was, certainly a long time ago, but have not had the time to look how to do that in TC yet but it's on the list!

TC for Mac also underwent a change. Version 1-3 used one system, V.4 and V.5 – which is where I started in TC, used another, not sure of V.6 but when I upgraded to V.7 it was different again but more in tune with V.1-V.3, different look to the menu and tools and things – to me at least – seem to work in slightly different ways. Having said that, I do like working in V.7 and for that matter V.5 which I still have installed, and it suits me. V.9 is now available but I cannot justify the upgrade costs!

Gary – just a thought re 'Create Viewport'. In the View menu there is an option marked 'New View' – I was wondering if that were it, I've not tried it so don't know, just a thought.

Chris

[HOWARDTParticipant @howardt]

Being a career machine tool designer I have always used Autodesk products from AutoCad v9 (1988) to Inventor 2014, then retired. I am now using Fusion 360 on a Mac. I was sceptical about 3D initially but after using it I became a convert. Since I was a professional user I had a long standing account with Autodesk which I log into, since retiring I can still log onto this account and used this to download Fusion which still allowed me to register it as a hobbyist.

Paper is still my way to get an idea fleshed out before woking out the sizes in 3D

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