Warco VMC

[petro1headParticipant @petro1head]

Did a bit more digging and found a manual for a V1P that was on the Denford forum where the guy who has the manual says the words Warco A1s have been tipex'd out

[LathejackParticipant @lathejack]

Well I have just done a bit of digging too. Axminster no longer appear to list it on their site.

Chester, however, do still list it as the 830 VS mill. Apart from the variable speed, this is the same as the later versions of the A1S that Warco offered, up until they discontinued them.

Chester list all the dimentions and capacities. As I mentioned, when I examined one of these machines not too long ago it appeared to be made in Taiwan, and quite nice too. I also see from Chesters site I have just looked at that it has a Taiwan price tag as well.

[petro1headParticipant @petro1head]

Well looking at the Chester web site the 830vs looks bigger that the spec on the photo in my previous post

[petro1headParticipant @petro1head]

Has anyone bought a VMC used and if so how was it transported. I.e. Did you dismantle it into more manageable pieces

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

Posted by MalcB on 29/01/2017 17:00:20:

Thanks Chris, thats worth noting. I am aware of the cooling issues on lower running but 24/7 is never going to happen. It will deffo be significantly more intermittent.

I suppose they somehow have to qualify a cut off point for motors that run continually like some compressors and fans etc.

Its as you say for your lathe, excessive periods of continuos running in home workshop are unlikely and if you do happen to suspect some possible chance overheating you can always fall back on a belt change.

You might be surprised how quickly the motor heats up when run slow.

If you put all your motor parameters into the inverter it should model its heating/cooling behaviour and do its best to stop you overheating it.

[MalcBParticipant @malcb52554]

Posted by petro1head on 29/01/2017 23:13:39:

Has anyone bought a VMC used and if so how was it transported. I.e. Did you dismantle it into more manageable pieces

 

Yes, I bought my early 626 used, so had to travel about 60 miles to collect it.

Picked it up in my motorcycle box trailer which has hinged down loading ramp. The main column is heaviest section, especially with the whole ram assembly attached. I picked it up from a guy who has an engine crane and pallet truck so it was easy to load from his workshop down to the road.

The ram assembly was disconnected at the motor, then dismantled and lifted from the machine. The table has to be then raised until the knee screw is up higher than the bottom of the casting base, table about 4-5" from top of its travel on mine for safe clearance. The column was then unbolted from the base cabinet and lifted clear,.

The high table position leaves column assembly a bit top heavy so care in moving and loading into trailer was needed to stop any tipping.

Parts all loaded into position in trailer using rollers etc where needed and with some two man lifting/manipulating. Column section again most difficult as trailer is a box trailer so couldnt be just craned into position, open trailer would be much easier but more exposed. A van will need same procedure as box trailer.

Loads of ratchet points in my bike trailer fortunately so everyting well ratchetted down.

It will depend on electrical system on machine as to how much electrical disconnection is required, mine has 3 axis DRO already fitted so a tad of extra electrical and mechanical disconnecting required. Table powerfeed was supplied loose and had not installed. From memory I do not think I have missed anything but heyho.

Malc

 

Edited By MalcB on 30/01/2017 07:45:26

[MalcBParticipant @malcb52554]

Posted by Neil Wyatt on 30/01/2017 05:07:28:

Posted by MalcB on 29/01/2017 17:00:20:

Thanks Chris, thats worth noting. I am aware of the cooling issues on lower running but 24/7 is never going to happen. It will deffo be significantly more intermittent.

I suppose they somehow have to qualify a cut off point for motors that run continually like some compressors and fans etc.

Its as you say for your lathe, excessive periods of continuos running in home workshop are unlikely and if you do happen to suspect some possible chance overheating you can always fall back on a belt change.

You might be surprised how quickly the motor heats up when run slow.

If you put all your motor parameters into the inverter it should model its heating/cooling behaviour and do its best to stop you overheating it.

Thanks Neil, already put motor parameters in.

The VFD I installed on my M300 is left at 50Hz and I use the machines own speed ranges. There is a variable frequency pot on its Teco but I haven't needed it on the lathe, so the motor stays at std speed.

This one I am fitting on my 626 is my first where I will be using a pot to control speed so I will be monitoring motor temperature as previously suggested.

I have already had the issue with this particular Teco, of occasionally RCD tripping on the consumer unit when switching down the whole power supply to the machine. The manual shows to disconnect the EMC filter by breaking a link from outside the case to overcome this supply issue which i have now done.

It would actually be easy to fit a switch to the filter to bring in and out as needed if at all necessary.

[Gary WoodingParticipant @garywooding25363]

Posted by Andrew Johnston on 29/01/2017 13:51:03:

The correct equation for power is:

Power (W) = Torque (Nm) x angular velocity (rad/s)

Andrew

You're right. I should have said power is proportional to torque x rpm.

[Brian O’ConnorParticipant @brianoconnor49474]

Posted by petro1head on 29/01/2017 23:13:39:

Has anyone bought a VMC used and if so how was it transported. I.e. Did you dismantle it into more manageable pieces

I bought a VMC a couple of years ago. As my workshop is in a room in the centre of my house the machine had to be brought in through the front door, manoeuvred around the bottom of the stairs and then through a normal household door into the workshop. It arrived in a fully assembled state, on its base, but with the table removed. It was a tight squeeze in places but we managed it. A Warco mechanic accompanied the dellivery driver and he refitted the table once the mill was in place.

B

[petro1headParticipant @petro1head]

[quote]I have only ever considered replacing it with one of the bigger versions, such as an A1S or a VME[/quote]

There is a A1S for sale in the classified section

I considered it but its just too big for my workshop

Original Warco info –

[LathejackParticipant @lathejack]

Very nice. That's one of the earlier versions that Warco offered in the 1980's and early 90's. They have deeper and wider castings than later versions, with scraped guideways on the top surface of the knee and on the vertical guidways of the column, and are the same as the machine that Myford offered as the VME.

The later Warco A1S mills with slimmer and shallower castings, as on the current Chester version, are still good machines but just not as good as the earlier ones. As well as a much narrower saddle, later ones also had a knee casting that wasn't as tall, which I think allowed the knee and table to be wound lower, and contributed to the increase in room between the spindle and table.

I took a look at the A1S for sale, it looks like an earlier type, very nice and well worth the money, but it's just too far away from me even if I was tempted. There is also an equivalent Myford VME on offer for twice the price.

Edited By Lathejack on 30/01/2017 19:21:54

[petro1headParticipant @petro1head]

Well I would have bought it but just too big.

I did, however, get a quote to get it from its location to Newcastle and the cost was about £240 which is not too bad at all.

I also a pity that the smaller Warco machines only spin up to 1600rpm

Edited By petro1head on 30/01/2017 19:48:20

[Stuart BridgerParticipant @stuartbridger82290]

I have a VMC and the rubber sheet that keeps swarf out of the slideways has disintegrated. The standard Warco sheet is a bit on the thick side and often fouls my vice. I would be interested to hear what others are using. I see that one owner is using some form of yellow sheet from a photo earlier in this thread.

Thanks

Stuart

[petro1headParticipant @petro1head]

I am now looking at the super major

[MalcBParticipant @malcb52554]

Posted by Stuart Bridger on 30/01/2017 20:37:27:

I have a VMC and the rubber sheet that keeps swarf out of the slideways has disintegrated. The standard Warco sheet is a bit on the thick side and often fouls my vice. I would be interested to hear what others are using. I see that one owner is using some form of yellow sheet from a photo earlier in this thread.

Thanks

Stuart

Mine has a set of concertina slideway bellows fitted. They are old now and are starting to fray in places. I have had a quick look on the Bay for a suitable replacement but nothing as of yet. Need to further research a source.

I do have a sheet of 1/16" rubber just about big enough to make similar to whats fitted to new ones now. Dont really want to go down that route yet. Prefer the bellows if i can get some but not desperate yet.

[Mike BondarczukParticipant @mikebondarczuk27171]

Stuart,

For the rubber swarf guards to protect the Y-axis lead screw on my 626 mill I have just last week replaced the torn rubber sheeting with some 250mm wide by 500mm long neoprene rubber sheeting in a 1mm thickness and fixed it to the top of the stand by a 25mm wide steel bar using the two M5 screw holes and the standard metal strap at the table end.

For the cost of just over a couple of pounds for a 500mm by 500mm sheet I have enough material for a replacement when that one tears, which hopefully will not be for some time yet.

Mike

[MalcBParticipant @malcb52554]

Well tachometer arrived today and was able to see exactly where i was up to with actual spindle speeds.

From trials I am playing with two options to set belt speed at for 50Hz.

Have option of 1380RPM or 1800RPM.

For the time being I am going to run with 1800RPM setting at 50Hz.

On my Teco going into parameters Group 12 have set parameter 12-03 to show 1800 RPM at 50Hz. Have set parameter 12-04 to read display in RPM ( up to 5 fig integra ).

Display now shows spindle speed as you go. Spindle speed at 75Hz ( Tec's max rated speed ) is 2700RPM or a tad more if I wanted to push it. Will see how we go and monitor motor temp any periods on lower speeds. May fit digital thermo on it.

 

Edited By MalcB on 31/01/2017 19:12:36

[John RuddParticipant @johnrudd16576]

Malc,

Does the Teco have the capabilty to utilise the in built thermistor in the motor?

My invertek drive can accept a thermistor input, but I chose not to use it even though my lathe and mill both have TEC motors fitted…

My lathe ( a WM 290 equivalent) has a 2800 rpm motor fitted and I run it at 4000 rpm ( 75 hz ) to give me the same spindle speeds as before…it replaced a 1.5kw dc motor…..

[Clive FosterParticipant @clivefoster55965]

Malc

Good place to start. Should give you a similar speed range to what I had on the fast belt setting which was quite workable.

But maybe a little on the fast side for the one and only / normally used speed range. My experience suggests that 2,000 – 2,200 rpm top end and bottom speed pro rata would work out a bit better for a single range. With my 125 to 1,400 and 250 to 2,800 speed ranges I often enough found that it would have been better if I could have gone a 100 rpm or so slower in high or 200 rpm or so faster in low. Not quite far enough out to be worth changing speeds just for that but just made life that bit harder. Fortunately the speed overlap on mine was sufficient that for a goodly range of jobs it didn't really matter which belt setting it was on.

If you use a wiggler, edge finder or co-axial indicator its desirable to have a nice low speed on tap. Say 100 rpm or less. Run much faster and things start getting a bit frantic.

Clive.

[MalcBParticipant @malcb52554]

John,

Yes it does and the thermister block is there in the terminal box as well. It has ability to display the temperature but I am not sure if is able to do any further controlling. Its unlikely I will use it, but I will research it further out of pure interest and learning.

Clive,

Very interesting, If I opt for the lower 1380RPM setting at 50Hz the top speed hits about 2100 RPM at 75Hz or 2200 if i squeeze it a bit. May be better running with this option with a belt change for higher speeds than 2100/2200. Will give it a few weeks and swap over. I do use wigglers and edge finders.

 

 

Edited By MalcB on 31/01/2017 21:54:19

[John RuddParticipant @johnrudd16576]

Malc,

Does the Teco inverter have the ability to set a different frequency that is switchable using a digital input…,?

I have Teco inverter on my lathe ( a smaller version of yours, .75 hp) but havent really read the manual…..

If inverters had the flexibilty to set the frequency switchable from 0-50 and 0- to x hz it would make belt changing un-necessary if it could be changed by a switch…..

Something for me to look into……

[Clive FosterParticipant @clivefoster55965]

Malc

Do please report back. As VFD solutions become more popular we need more data points as to what constitutes the most useful general purpose speed range for HomeShop folks. Which will undoubtably be different for different sizes of machine and different types of work. Think we will always have to accept that there will be some belt changing as a VFD alone will rarely be enough. (These days I drive a Bridgeport with 2J2 infinitely variable speed head. The majority of my work gets done between 400 and 1,500 rpm as I don't often use flycutters or large face mills. 50 rpm for centre finding, alignment and wiggler duties.)

John

In similar applications switched resistors can be used in conjunction with the potentiometer to set the variable fraction of the range relative to the whole range. I can see no reason why it shouldn't work with a VFD. If you just want switch selection from a range of pre-set speeds you could use a bank of resistors with a multi position switch. I've done such for other purposes but wouldn't advise going beyond 12 positions. Switches start getting expensive and the resistor bank cumbersome if restricted to simple DIY techniques.

Clive.

[MalcBParticipant @malcb52554]

 

Posted by John Rudd on 31/01/2017 22:30:41:

Malc,

Does the Teco inverter have the ability to set a different frequency that is switchable using a digital input…,?

I have Teco inverter on my lathe ( a smaller version of yours, .75 hp) but havent really read the manual…..

If inverters had the flexibilty to set the frequency switchable from 0-50 and 0- to x hz it would make belt changing un-necessary if it could be changed by a switch…..

Something for me to look into……

Hi John,

Reading your question in conjunction with Clive response as well.

I have two Teco inverters that i have installed. Both models have a variable frequency potentiometer on the face of the inverter, like on the more expensive Inverteks.

I have a 2.2kw Teco EV series on my Harrison M300. Its a late machine (2003) which has  more contactors and overload protectors than the earlier models. MEW 145 covered a conversion for mine. The logic control to the inverter in this article seemed overly complex so i did my own circuit diagram, got my electrical wizard friend check it, went ahead and rewired it all to utilise all the machine controls and interlocks, not really wanting to do any with the inverter, which i left set at 50Hz max. I can still use the pot on the front to vary speed if needed, but the M300 has such a good speed range i think it will never be necessary.

The Teco I have just installed on the VMC. is the L510 series 1.5kw model, which is to be used opposite to above in that i am using frequency range to change speeds.

I do not understand what you would gain by having switched frequency ranges. If you programme the inverter  to use the potentiometer with a speed range from say 0 to 100Hz why would there be a benefit switching in between? I cannot see in the manual that you can use different ranges, only a min and max, but does not mean i have not missed it.

 Its as Clive has established, setting a wide frequency range and then setting the belt position to achieve the optimum compromise of max speed, lowest speed, satisfactory motor cooling at lower frequency and minimum amount of belt changes if needed.

If its an issue of knowing exactly what speed you are doing and your inverter does not have the ability to display revs then its still really simple.

Once you are satisfied with the fixed initial belt position,  buy yourself a digital tachometer like I just have.

You can get a decent one for not a lot of money. Use the tacho and at each of the potentiometers markings, take a reading and the do yourself a chart of frequncy setting vs RPM, which is what I would have done had I not got the parameters to do this on the Teco.

To generalise a little.

One of the big learning curves for me is using inverters and I have a lot to learn yet. When I first started looking at and learning about them, I download quite a few manuals ( and i mean quite a few ). I found some very easy to tead and follow right thru' to those that were megga difficult to understand. Loads of Youtube videos watched, each time gleebing a little more understanding.

I actually found the Invertek and Teco not to difficult to follow and these were makes high on consideration list.

Edited By MalcB on 01/02/2017 09:20:07

[MalcBParticipant @malcb52554]

Clive,

Thanks for input and yes I will keep you all in the frame with results when I finalise settings.

[Mike PooleParticipant @mikepoole82104]

The new Warco VMC with variable speed drive is available as R8 metric and the two speed ranges are 100-600rpm and 425-2500rpm, motor is 1.5kw. Priced at £2269 delivered, I wish it had been available when I bought mine!

Mike

Edited By Mike Poole on 01/02/2017 18:12:24

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