vertical slide or x1 mill attachment

[Bob PerkinsParticipant @bobperkins67044]

[Bob PerkinsParticipant @bobperkins67044]

Morning.. First post so please be patient.

I have a SIEG SC4 lathe and I’m sat here tying to decide should I buy a vertical slide or an X1 mill attachment?? Comments and experience would be most welcome.

Thanks

Bob

[Francis SykesParticipant @francissykes95134]

I’m no expert on this, but I was thinking about a vertical slide for my lathe (3.5″ drummond) – but whilst I could think of ways to do larger pieces of work that I’d want to do, in the ned I bought a WM18 clone.

 

Anyway, back to answering your question, I think the question you have to ask yourself is what work will you want to do, and will either solution be sufficient to allow you to do it. If you look at the For Sale section today there is a Sieg X1 complete for a good price. If I hadn’t got mine I think I’d have snapped that up.

[Bob PerkinsParticipant @bobperkins67044]

Hi Francis and thanks for your reply and comments. I’m getting into automata models, which started as toys for nephews and soon to be grandchild. These have started as wood constructions, but I’m keen to move the complexity of these forward, and and have been using my lathe to make some small detailed wooden and metal parts. I hope to make some basic gear and drive mechanisms, at present nothing too large, and quite basic as I gather tooling and expertise. I had a look at the X1 in the site and have now perhaps added a 3rd option to the equation!

Following in the spirit of the “no question too stupid”, it must be easier to set up work pieces in the horizontal rather than the vertical plane.??

[Steve WithnellParticipant @stevewithnell34426]

I have a Sieg vertical slide and it is not as flexible as a traditional vertical slide. I have yet to find a use for it. It won’t rotate around it’s vertical axis as an example and it does not have a slotted table as a work surface. So, your question becomes more complicated than you thought! A Myford vertical slide offers far more capability than my Sieg slide does.

 

Rather than an X1 as an attachment to the lathe, my view would be to get the X1 standalone (or better an X3!). Lots of reasons for this view, but here is one to think about. The traverse wheel on my Sieg lathe is calibrated to 0.5mm as the smallest division. My stand alone mill x&y axis wheels are calibrated to 0.05mm as the smallest division. So with an X1 attachment, one axis will be very coarse indeed.

 

[Francis SykesParticipant @francissykes95134]

Bob, congratulations on the soon to be grandfather status!

 

Firstly, I must declare my hand as pretty much a total (re) beginner in machining. I did a bit at school, and have had quite a bit of contact with ‘real’ machinists through work, but as at today – most of my answers are from my pondering/reading! (Which I seem to be able to do far easier than spending workshop time!!)

 

As for the vertical vs horizontal, yes, it’ll be easier on the horizontal, you’ve got gravity on your side rather than as an enemy. Plus of course the limited size of a vertical slide really limits the clamping methods/options available to you.

 

I notice the Myford slide mentioned by Steve, from memory this type of slide looks the part, but I think you’re into three figures to buy one.

 

Beware though, and apologies you’re probably already aware of this, tooling for the lathe or the mill for milling operations quickly mounts up cost wise.

 

Automata – I remember doing one for a CDT project at school. It was two little wooden cars going back and forth behind a wodden ‘flyover’ – it was simply two pivoted wooden bars driven by a crank made of bent steel rod. The bearings for the crank I made (not brilliantly) from acrylic, or maybe nylon, on a tiny model makers lathe. Happy days!

[Bob PerkinsParticipant @bobperkins67044]

Francis, Steve

Thanks for your comments. I have gone down the route of a Milling slide wirh a double swivel. Reasons:

I think that this will always be useful, even when I opt for a dedicated mill at some stage.

Less expensive, so some free cash for some more bits.

Although I’m really pleased with the performance of my SC4 lathe, I think the X1 bolt on would be a dissapointment and perhaps soon out grown. I’ll start to fill the piggy bank for a higher spec machine once I’ve out grown the slide.

Regards

Bob..

[David HaynesParticipant @davidhaynes53962]

Hello Bob,

I have an ML7 with a vertical slide, not a Myford one but similar, with slotted table and double swivel. There is no micrometer dial on the vertical slide. I paid £50 for this, which I thought at the time was a bargain when the proper Myford one (with vice) was £110 from a member of my society. I managed to work out the calibration for the vertical traverse to be one revolution = 0.080″, thus 1/4 turn gave 20 thou up or down, remembering of course to go the right way; once or twice I grimaced as I went up when needing down! Much of the time I ended up measuring with the depth gauge on the vernier caliper. A lot of messing about which I would not have had with a micrometer dial . I had a few situations where the tool caught and the whole table kicked on one or other of it’s axes, even though the swivel had been tightened securely. In the end, I felt the best option would have been a vertical slide with micrometer and no tilting in either axis, much more secure and it is very rare to need to rotate the axis anyway.

 

After some years of switching between turning and milling in the lathe, with all the set up / set down time and so forth, I now have the opportunity to get a mill, research discussed here. I feel justified in this decision as I intend to do more than just my current little loco project, and hope to order a Sieg X3 from ArcEuro (non-tilting head/imperial/R8) soon.

 

(Non-tilting for rigidness, imperial because all my drawings and lathe are imperial, R8 for ease of drawbar removal)

 

Many people say the mill is not essential and much is possible with only a lathe. A friend has completed Martin Evan’s 5″ Metro without a mill and I know many others have done more, but all will admit that a mill is a big help. I should add, the Sieg X2 from ArcEuro is probably a good choice and much less than an X3.

 

With best wishes

Dave

Edited By David Haynes on 28/12/2011 14:44:09

Edited By David Haynes on 28/12/2011 14:46:37

Edited By David Haynes on 28/12/2011 14:47:32

[Francis SykesParticipant @francissykes95134]

Bob – it’s whatever works for you. I probably should have started with a slide but instead attacked the problem from the other end!

 

David _ I went for the R8 taper too – although more so I’ve got interchangeability with Bridgeport tooling, friend of mine has one, and they seem to be the universal answer in industry too.

 

For what it’s worth, the tilting head on the Sieg (and the slightly different type of machine I have) probably compromise rigidity a lot less than the X1 clones that have the whole column tilting. Still need to get out, clean off the slideways and do lubrication, and actually cut some material with the machine and get some understanding of my limitations and the pros and cons of it.

[David HaynesParticipant @davidhaynes53962]

Francis, firstly thank you for posting the pictures of your newly arrived milling machine, all exciting stuff! Did you have to strip it down to remove transport grease, apply running grease and generally fettle up where necessary? I known that ArcEuro recommend this for all their Sieg mills. You have mentioned the rigidity issue of Sieg tilting columns, the X3 that is supplied by Arc and Axminster does not tilt and that is one of the things that drew me to it. Finally, what surface treatment did you use for you workshop floor? It looks nice. Do you find it is robust and fit for purpose?

With best wishes

David

[Francis SykesParticipant @francissykes95134]

Hello David, happy new year to you!

It was a pleasure to post up the pictures, and I was very excited once the large box landed!

As for prepping it for use, SPG had said just plug it in and use it. Well, whilst I’m sure that would work, I want to get the most life out of my investment, so I had a look through the Arc guide, and also the manual available on the Grizzly site, which was far more comprehensive than the one the machine is supplied with. It also gives a run in procedure for increasing machine speed in 10 minute intervals to bed things down, and it did make a difference.

I then cleaned off and degreased all the slides with a rag and White spirit, then relived with some cheapo Comma gear oil. I will probably look to get some proper slideway oil at some point. I didn’t dismantle Anything other than the slideway covers. I may degrease and degrease the screws themselves, although there seemed to be little mention of the need for this in the documentation I had.

Finally, I set up my vice on the table with a couple

[Francis SykesParticipant @francissykes95134]

Of tee nuts supplied and did my first bit of milling. Used the side of a 10mm ball end mill to take 0.5mm off each side of the tee nuts in my 14mm clamping set so they’d fit the tee slots. Worked well and I got a good feel for some of the things I’d read about, cutting speeds, conventional vs climb milling and so on. No issues, maybe can see a little chatter in the finish but pleased so far.

The floor finish is simply garage floor paint, it’s been down about 5 years and I need to re do it in patches. Generally good, I know spinning the back wheels of a 5.7 litre car takes it off( I was trying to recreate conditions of a misfire that only occurred under load…) and also making of a steel table for my lathe that involved moving cut ends of box section about has damaged it. I think it’s fair wear and tear. If you want I can look up the brand, I’ve got an unopened tin of it still.

[JonParticipant @jon]

On my now long scrapped ML7 i had a vertical slide whic offered more adjustment than the Myford one.

However due to the lower vice it could only be screwed down a little way causing too many problems. From memory you would struggle with anything larger than 1″ square to centre. The only way i got round this was to clamp the lower jaw up half off the actual slide.

 

Due to the high centre forces and stresses this method imposes, i would be extremely carefull what you do. Really really menial cuts.

 

Me having gone through it, the £115 20 yr ago would have better spent towards a mill £660 at the time plus wear out the ML7 in no time.

 

 

 

[Bob PerkinsParticipant @bobperkins67044]

Thanks for all the comments, I have bought a vertical slide and vice from Chronos., which arrived in a couple of days, despite the holidays. To my inexpert eye it seems a solid piece of kit. To fit my SIEG , I’ve had to reduce the diameter of a couple of pegs that fit into the t nut slots on the cross slide and modify the T nuts. As I progress with using this I may well find some limitations to its capability, and perhaps initial limitations in funds may have influenced my decision. Overall initial impressions are good, but have noted Steve’s comments on the 0.5mm divs in the traverse wheel. I was thinking about building a simple hot air engine, but reading the comments on the forum regarding these is this wise??

[Ian S CParticipant @iansc]

Bob, a hot air engine would be a good start. If you build it carefully, and to a prooven design you should have little trouble getting it going. Ian S C

[Ady1Participant @ady1]

Two machine tools are always better than one, more flexibility.

 

So

 

“worst scenario” is the milling slide

 

second best is the milling attachment

 

Bestest would be an independent mill which could be attached to the lathe if required.

[Sub MandrelParticipant @submandrel]

If I had a multi-machine, what would I have made the new pulleys to get my lathe working again on?

 

Mind you I had to use the vertical slide on as a tool holder on the milling machine so perhaps it was belt and braces time!

 

Neil

[Bob PerkinsParticipant @bobperkins67044]

An update on the vertical slide…….

After a couple of tweaks I managed to fit the slide to my cross slide. I guess it was designed for a machine with the T slots running in the opposite direction to mine. This left an overhang over the front. Even with my inexperience this did not look good. I decided to make an adaptor plate to move it back. I’ve added some photos to my album. I’ve used it for the first time the other evening in making a cylinder for my first model project, and all seems good.. Thanks for all the advice with this.

Bob..

[Ady1Participant @ady1]

I’ve mentioned this somewhere else before.

 

I’ve found 2 flute slot drills the best, you can resharpen them with an ordinary grinder.

 

4mm or 6mm size and light cuts.

 

Asking too much from a milling slide usually leads to disaster, I also bolt a “backstop” at the side of my slide to increase the resistance to side forces as you mill.

 

gl

 

edit: I recently renewed my main leadscrew nut, having burned through two in two years.

No backlash has made a huge difference.

With milling, every tiny improvement you make makes things better.

Locking the saddle for instance, when possible.

Edited By Ady1 on 20/01/2012 03:17:15

[raffaele BattaniParticipant @raffaelebattani58655]

In my album you can see how I had fitted a vertical slide in my lathe.

This is useful for little work but it don’t substitute a true milling machine.

[Chris ParsonsParticipant @chrisparsons64193]

Found this thread as I am also considering fitting a vertical slide to my SC4 (while I save up for an SX3) and saw the post by Bob Perkins?

Bob, if you read this I am thinking of buying the same vertical slide and making your adaptor plate, did you ever draw up any plans for this? Are you generally satisfied with this or is there anything you would have done differently?

I did think about buying a Sieg vertical slide for an SC3 or SC6 from ArcEuro and perhaps making an adaptor plate for one of these (they do not seem to like the SC4) but got a fairly unhelpful 'They won't fit' response

Chris

[MadMikeParticipant @madmike]

Bob, I think your question says it all, and there isn't really much of a decision to make. If you can afford the cash and the space for the mill then there is frankly no need to consider a vertical slide for your lathe. For small lathes the vertical slides are by defiition "small" and this presents serious limitations in their effectiveness for clamping, and rigidity etc. Remember that in order to use milling cutters you will have to buy a collet chuck and some collets, or some other holding device. A 3 jaw chuck holding a rotating milling cutter is simply not safe.

When I got my Myford 254S it came with a vertical slide…………I have only used it once, prefering to use a friends milling machine until I buy mine.

So never mind making adaptor plates, and buying swivel base vertical slides, get the mill and get as big a mill as you can afford and or accomodate. It will offer you so many more solutions and give you much more accurate work, you won't even have to make a filing rest. Just think of how quickly you can make all of that lovely swarf.

[Michael Cox 1Participant @michaelcox1]

Anyone contemplating buying the Sieg vertical slide should read this critique:

**LINK**

I bought one of these slide when I first purchased my lathe. I have to say all the criticisms are well justified. Furthermore it is almost impossible to use without making a leadscrew handwheel in order to have fine adjustment of the saddle position. I gave up with it and bought an X1 mill which has proved to be a very good machine.

The old vertical slide has not been wasted and it has been repurposed as part of a tool and cutter grinder (under development)

Mike

[Bob PerkinsParticipant @bobperkins67044]

Hi Chris

Sorry, I don't have drawings for my adaptor plate. What I would have differently is that I would have put the cash towards my mill! I ended up only using the slide about a dozen times, and on nothing too chunky. I need to make sure every thing is as tight as possible, and I used the tail stock a few times to add some support. Don't get me wrong I'd managed to produce some nice pieces of work (well I thought so). A collet chuck would have been better than having to use the chuck for the cutters. Good old gravity was pain at times trying to set up jobs in the vertical plane. I did act as a fill in, I didn't enjoy using it, and at the time wasn't considering buying a mill. If it is an option now or in the near future pick up a mill. It's totally different to the comprimise of the slide. Perhaps not the comment you hoped for.

Regards

Bob P

[MetalhackerParticipant @metalhacker]

I had a similar setup to Mike's which was marketed by warco for their 918 type lathe. When setup on the cross slide, to which it bolted with little trouble via 3 T nuts as soon as the smallest cut was started it vibrated horribly and tried to tear the already fairly flimsy cross slide off the lathe, I didn't use it again and now have an SX3 which is great. I do however plan to use the slide again to try to bore 2 parallel holes in a block for a tool and cutter grinder (Brooks design from an MEW yonks ago). I hope this might work as a height adjustable boring table which I plan to fit to the cross slide on my Boxford. We shall see if it can redeem itself. Andries

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