Trade wars and this hobby

[HOWARDTParticipant @howardt]

Perhaps we in th uk have been told we can’t do this and that for too long. I have worked through it as have most on here for all our working lives. Too many people looking for the easy option in work, 35 hour weeks not 60. While I accept we can’t compete with the Far East on many things there are still others we can. We are all guilty looking for the cheapest option yet many will pay £4 for a cup of coffee that cost 4p at home. So do you make and buy UK or accept to buy cheap with lessening Uk manufacturing income.

[Martin DowingParticipant @martindowing58466]

Posted by HOWARDT on 05/04/2018 18:26:39:

Perhaps we in th uk have been told we can’t do this and that for too long. I have worked through it as have most on here for all our working lives. Too many people looking for the easy option in work, 35 hour weeks not 60. While I accept we can’t compete with the Far East on many things there are still others we can. We are all guilty looking for the cheapest option yet many will pay £4 for a cup of coffee that cost 4p at home. So do you make and buy UK or accept to buy cheap with lessening Uk manufacturing income.

You often don't even know what you are buying. On many occassions you are convinced that you are buying UK goods only to get Far Eastern/Romanian/Bulgarian imports.

I have ML7 lathe so buying spares for it from Myford (Mytholmroyd) or RDG should imply that I am buying UK production. Yet I am quite convinced that custom made Far Eastern or Eastern European imports are usually delivered and all what is done in UK is label sticking and packaging. Quality is often questionable as well, perhaps because cheapest (and crapest) Far Eastern manufacturers are selected and their price still bargained down as much as possible.

Another thing is that for items like carbide inserts, torx screws, boring heads, broaching sets, ACME taps and many others I will not overpay 3-50 fold to keep bureaucrats happier, welfare m(b)ums even fatter and lazier and for immigrants to get more benefits.

By buying it in UK you are usually *not* supporting local manufacturer only cheeky trader who imports it, sometimes sticks "made in UK/EU" label on, rips you off and laugh all the way to bank. If not that it will ofen be a corpo with production facilities in China and some of managers and accountants located here. That is what "made in UK/EU" usually means these days.

For those abhorrified about possible tax evasion:

You can buy carbide inserts £ 0.2 each via Banggood from Netherlands stores and diamond coated grinding discs worth 4 packets of peanuts, countless other similar products all of superb quality. So EU duties paid, all done lege artis and pimps may p**s off.

Martin

[Martin DowingParticipant @martindowing58466]

For those who believe in Sandvik carbide tools/inserts are made in Europe mythology here is an interesting reading:

https://www.home.sandvik/en/news-and-media/newslist/news/1998/03/sandvik-has-inaugurated-the-most-modern-cemented-carbide-tool-factory-in-china/

Don't forget to check the date of this release…

Martin

Edited By Martin Dowing on 05/04/2018 20:26:09

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Multi-choice questions:

Q1 Where is the best place in the world to manufacture goods?

A. The country that most enthusiastically crushes women, gays and liberal pinkos whilst blaming foreigners, immigrants, and minorities for all their misfortunes.

B. The country that flies the Union Jack, has a Royal Family, started the Industrial Revolution, and has chosen to leave the world's most prosperous economic bloc.

C. The country with a president who says that it's easy to win trade wars, that Mexico will pay for a wall, who isn't concerned that a foreign power influences the democratic process.

D. Wherever it happens to be cheapest at the moment.

Q2 What is the best way to get rich?

A. Heavy engineering, quality machine tools, and steel making

B. Mining coal

C. Making cars, fridges, electric motors and cheap tin trays

D. Electronics

F. Agriculture

E. Information, Services, Entertainment, Pharmaceuticals, Financials, Innovations, or anything else that people will pay good money for that they can't get anywhere else.

Dave

[Trevor Crossman 1Participant @trevorcrossman1]

Exactly so Martin !

From the time that I became self employed until I finally chucked it in at nearly 70 I always decided upon the quality that I needed for any task and bought whatever items needed legitimately from wherever the delivered price was best, whatever the country of origin. I must have done something right to support a family of 6 without welfare, pay all my taxes, generate a good customer base and come out clean .

It is quite laughable and thoroughly p****s me off that some folk think that buying from a non UK based supplier somehow hastens the demise of British manufacturing, retailing and distribution, when there are far more destructive forces at work….central government policy for the past 50 years, business rates, school curricula devoid of practical training, local nimbyism, and many other factors. My buying gears from Czech, or tooling from Germany or metals from Poland is no different to another's foreign car or holiday!

Any trade war, tariffs, quotas, protectionism, harms trade, depresses business confidence and ultimately will raise prices and the smaller economies will suffer the worst, and within those economies hobbyists do not have much importance, so it will affect all here. Free and fair trade between all, with less political and social engineering is what is needed to ensure a more harmonious world.

Trevor

[HopperParticipant @hopper]

Dunno about in the UK but I am sure the Americans will be happy to pay extra for their imported lathes and tooling in order to Make America Great Again.

Edited By Hopper on 06/04/2018 00:14:15

[not done it yetParticipant @notdoneityet]

Posted by Hopper on 06/04/2018 00:13:56:

Dunno about in the UK but I am sure the Americans will be happy to pay extra for their imported lathes and tooling in order to Make America Great Again.

Edited By Hopper on 06/04/2018 00:14:15

The ‘old used machine’ refurbishers will have a field day. Seem to be already popular – as better value than new machinery.

[Mick B1Participant @mickb1]

Posted by not done it yet on 06/04/2018 07:34:02:

Posted by Hopper on 06/04/2018 00:13:56:

Dunno about in the UK but I am sure the Americans will be happy to pay extra for their imported lathes and tooling in order to Make America Great Again.

Edited By Hopper on 06/04/2018 00:14:15

The ‘old used machine’ refurbishers will have a field day. Seem to be already popular – as better value than new machinery.

If they're popular it doesn't necessarily mean they're a good purchase. Refurbishers vary just like used car dealers, and are equally capable of concealing rather than rectifying faults.

[DMBParticipant @dmb]

Hopper,

Perhaps mega price increases will M.A.G.A.

Sorry, I'll get my coat.

[not done it yetParticipant @notdoneityet]

I wasn’t particularly referring to modellers in that post. There is a burgeoning market for huge commercial refurbished machines which are as good as original spec, perhaps even better. It seems that a hudred grand is often better spent on a refurbished machine than a new one.

Whether that might apply to small machines is another matter, but could do. ‘Factory’ refurbished Myfords sell at what I think as extortionate prices already. We can discount the fly by night ‘boat anchor’ offerings on fleabay, I think.

Try this u-toob vid, which I found interesting.

**LINK**

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Posted by Trevor Crossman 1 on 05/04/2018 21:13:58:

Exactly so Martin !

…

It is quite laughable and thoroughly p****s me off that some folk think that buying from a non UK based supplier somehow hastens the demise of British manufacturing, retailing and distribution, when there are far more destructive forces at work….central government policy for the past 50 years, business rates, school curricula devoid of practical training, local nimbyism, and many other factors. …

Trevor

Trevor makes a very good point about 'far more destructive forces at work', and he lists a few. Actually it's his final category of "many other factors" that's most significant. A few examples:

• For a few thousand years Cornwall was the world's largest supplier of Tin. What went wrong? By the late 18th century, the early miners had extracted all the tin near the surface. To get more the miners had to go deeper and deeper. This made it increasingly expensive to lift ore to the surface, and made it necessary to continually pump enormous quantities of water out of the workings. Steam made that possible but there is no coal in Cornwall. It had to be imported by ships and transported to the mine by horse and cart. This added yet more to the cost. The killer blow was the discovery of large deposits of alluvial Tin in Malaysia. Not only is Malaysian ore rich in Tin, it is close to the surface and much easier to extract by cheap quarrying. There is nothing that can be done in Cornwall by the Workforce, Management or Government to overcome a fundamental disadvantage.
• The Five Towns comprising the Potteries, now Stoke on Trent, were once the centre of British ceramics, for about 200 years making a good living from mass production of pots, plates, toilet bowls, and tea-cups etc. What went wrong? The Five Towns happened to be located on top of large deposits of good quality clay interleaved with equally good quality coal. Both were relatively cheap to extract. When the coal and clay deposits were exhausted, it became necessary to import both by rail. This pushed prices up and made the Industry vulnerable to anywhere else in the world were a pottery could be built next to a cheap source of coal and clay. Again, there was nothing that could be done by the Workforce, Management or Government to overcome a fundamental disadvantage.
• The demise of the British Iron and Steel Industry follows exactly the same pattern. Dudley was once a major producer of world class Iron. It was located on a coal-field low in sulphur and phosphorous next to a large supply of excellent iron-ore. Once the ore and coal had gone, and Wrought Iron was being replaced by Steel, Dudley becomes a thoroughly bad place to re-invest in a new steel-works. You can feed the furnaces by rail, but that's expensive. To be economic, a steel-works needs to be big, it consumes large quantities of water as well as coal, coke, scrap, and ore. These, and the finished product, are all heavy, and the cheapest way to move them is by ship. There is nothing Dudley can do overcome the fact that other producers are located near seaports and cheaper raw materials. Dudley bit the dust because they couldn't compete with Sheffield. A hundred years later, Sheffield suffered the same fate for very similar reasons. There is nothing that can be done by the Workforce, Management or Government to overcome a fundamental disadvantage.
• Many, many, more examples. The economics of Shipbuilding have seen the Industry move from the UK to Europe, to Japan, South Korea and most recently China. Textiles, toys, consumer goods – none are immune.

I'm a little depressed when people blame the EU, Bureaucracy, Quality, Socialism, Capitalism, ill-educated Youth, Taxes, Health and Safety, Civil-Servants, the Metric System, the UN, Political Correctness, Gays, Women, the Banks, Politicians, Managers, Accountants and Hairdressers for the state of manufacturing. Sure these might tip a sick business over the edge, but none of them are root-causes.

The awful truth is if your chosen way of making a living fails, you have to move on. There is no way of recreating the opportunities of the past. No matter how good it was at the time, if it's done, it's done and it's gone. Get over it. The best thing us old chaps can do is provide good advice and let the youngsters get on with it.  If that means Knowledge Based Services and Bit-Coin so be it.

Dave

Edited By SillyOldDuffer on 06/04/2018 11:25:06

Edited By SillyOldDuffer on 06/04/2018 11:27:25

[HopperParticipant @hopper]

True that, SOD. The one thing that's constant in this world is change. And even that's getting faster all the time. You can't wind back the clock, even by presidential fiat. The most important skill for the younger generation today is the ability to cope with rapid change.

[Mick B1Participant @mickb1]

Posted by SillyOldDuffer on 06/04/2018 11:19:49:

…

I'm a little depressed when people blame the EU, Bureaucracy, Quality, Socialism, Capitalism, ill-educated Youth, Taxes, Health and Safety, Civil-Servants, the Metric System, the UN, Political Correctness, Gays, Women, the Banks, Politicians, Managers, Accountants and Hairdressers for the state of manufacturing. Sure these might tip a sick business over the edge, but none of them are root-causes.

The awful truth is if your chosen way of making a living fails, you have to move on. There is no way of recreating the opportunities of the past. No matter how good it was at the time, if it's done, it's done and it's gone. Get over it. The best thing us old chaps can do is provide good advice and let the youngsters get on with it. If that means Knowledge Based Services and Bit-Coin so be it.

Dave

Edited By SillyOldDuffer on 06/04/2018 11:25:06

Edited By SillyOldDuffer on 06/04/2018 11:27:25

Yes. Most of that is fair comment, though I think it's fair to say that it was the Clean Air Act that killed the Potteries by shutting down the hundreds of coal-fired bottle ovens that ran the process there.

The problem is that many or most people are unable to 'move on'. They have a skillset that is usually hard-won and the prospect of having to start again is usually daunting, even if they know which of many possible paths would be best to follow.

Identifying, laying out those paths and showing people the way is surely the task of any forward-looking government that has knowingly sapped the foundations of vast numbers of livelihoods, even if the reasons for doing so may have been valid. General prate about 'entrepreneurship' and bogus 'empowerment' really won't do.

There is legitimate cause to criticise our political leadership.

[Mike PooleParticipant @mikepoole82104]

Germany has managed to build and hold on to a powerful high quality manufacturing even though they are in the same boat as us at the moment. This must have been enabled by their government and banking systems. When I was at school the stick they used to beat us was that if we didn't work we would finish up in the car factory ( think they meant on the production line) I did finish up in the car factory and loved every minute of my 44 years spent there. The Germans seem to have a much more positive attitude to working in a car factory and are willing to get up very early to travel 60 miles and work on the production line. The factory's I have visited are all very modern and the facilities for workers are excellent. Car factory's in the uk are now all very modern but none are uk owned. A few teachers I have spoken to are impressed by a career in the car industry so a bit of a change seems to be happening. Perhaps even the teaching profession see university for all as not the solution and guiding unsuitable people onto unsuitable courses and charging a fortune for the privilege is one of the cons of the century. It seems to me that engineering in the uk has provided many people with a satisfying job that they do for the enjoyment and not the salary. I wonder if the services sector pay outrageous salaries because no one actually wants the job but will do anything for money.

Mike

[Roderick JenkinsParticipant @roderickjenkins93242]

The Germans seem to have a different attitude to long term investment and take-over protection than the UK. I don't think the current debacle with GKN could happen in Germany.

Rod

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