Thread Pitch Info.

[Alan .204Participant @alan-204]

i want to make a ER32 collet holder to fit on to my dividing head, the spindle thread measures out to be 1.5 inch OD with 8tpi it’s a bit of an odd ball I think any one have any info on the thread data for this, internal data I mean ?

Alan.

[Alan .204Participant @alan-204]

[BazyleParticipant @bazyle]

You need to measure the thread angle, whether it is Whitworth or UNC. All the parameters are defined then against the diameter and pitch. When you look up a table of thread pitches that is just he common ones for ease of buing compatible parts but the thread standard definition can be used to calculate the dimensions for any 'odball' diameter or pitch.

[Alan .204Participant @alan-204]

Should have said it’s UNC

[david sanderson 3Participant @davidsanderson3]

Alan is it not BSF 1.5 inch 8 tpi same as a boxford spindle nose UNC would normally be 1 inch 8 tpi

[Alan .204Participant @alan-204]

Hi David, no mate it’s defnatly UNC 8tpi, said it was an odd ball, I’ll see what I can find on the net, i would like to start it tomorrow just need the thread info.

Alan.

[Alan .204Participant @alan-204]

I’ve got 1.498 for the bolt and 1.349 for the nut should be ok with that hopefully.

Alan.

[Speedy Builder5Participant @speedybuilder5]

What was the Southbend thread ? My 'Southbend" backplate fits my BOXFORD and as the Southbend is American, I assume the thread to have been 60 degree 1.5 x 8 tpi.

[BazyleParticipant @bazyle]

Posted by Speedy Builder5 on 18/05/2019 19:35:20:

What was the Southbend thread ? My 'Southbend" backplate fits my BOXFORD and as the Southbend is American, I assume the thread to have been 60 degree 1.5 x 8 tpi.

that's odd. I have a Southbend backplate that came on a chuck and it doesn't fit my Boxford though I think the other way round does work.

[Alan .204Participant @alan-204]

Ok chaps now I’m struggling with this thread I’m trying to cut, I’ve checked things again, OD of the screw thread is 1.5 inch I’ve checked the thread pitch again as I’ve found there is a 1.5 inch / 8 tip in BSF but it’s not that, it’s defiantly UNC, how can I work out the bore size for the internal thread, I know some of you chaps minght think it’s easy to do but it’s not when you don’t have a clue, can anyone explain how u do it, instead of knowing getting the bore size I would like to know how to work it out for myself for future refrance.

alan.

[I.M. OUTAHEREParticipant @i-m-outahere]

3. The formula below will give you the single depth for undertaking unified threads:

d = P x 0.750

Where d = Single Depth

P = Pitch

n = Number of threads per inch (TPI)

Infeed Depth = .75 / n

THREAD CALCULATIONS

To cut a correct thread on the lathe, it is necessary first to make calculations so that the thread will have proper dimensions. The following diagrams and formulas will be helpful when calculating thread dimensions.

Example: Calculate the pitch, depth, minor diameter, and width of flat for a ¾-10 NC thread.

P = 1 / n = 1 / 10 = 0.100 in.

Depth = .7500 x Pitch = .7500 x .100 = .0750 in.

Minor Diameter = Major Diameter – (D + D) = .750 – (.075 + .075) = 0.600 in.

Width of Flat = P / 8 = (1 / 8) x (1/10) = .0125 in.

Edited By XD 351 on 19/05/2019 14:35:08

[Alan .204Participant @alan-204]

Thanks for that, I get a bore size of 1.314 inch am I right?

Alan.

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Alan,

This German site might help. It gives dimensions for the 8-UN series, all of which are 8TPI, and might well be what you've got. Machinery's Handbook describes 8-UN as 'a uniform pitch series for large diameters. Although originally intended for high-pressure-joint bolts and nuts it is now widely used as a substitute for the Coarse-Thread Series for diameters larger than 1 inch." It's a valid Unified size, just not bog-standard.

For 1½" 8TPI the German table suggests a 35.1mm tap drill, which is about right for cutting an 8tpi internal thread to a depth of 0.06766" (Source: Machinery's)

When tackling confusing threads, I usually do a trial run on an Aluminium test piece first. Checking the result against the other thread will show if you've got the dimensions about right or need to think again.

The Unified spec says the internal thread should be truncated (flat) at the bottom rather than cut to the full sharp depth of 0.10825". It should also be rounded at the top. Beyond blunting the sharp top of external threads with a fine file I don't worry too much about either detail. If male and female mate I'm happy.

Making a new thread, I usually cut to a little less than theoretical, test for fit, and then take a succession of smaller cuts until the thread engages smoothly.

The annoying this about this sort of job is I usually mess up the first attempt in a muck sweat of time wasting anxiety, then make a poor second attempt that fits. If I go to the trouble of making a third, it will be made in half the time, be closer to size and have a much better finish. Make four and it becomes almost trivially easy to churn out good results…

Dave

[Jeff DaymanParticipant @jeffdayman43397]

Machinery's Handbook states that for 1 1/2"-8 thread ( 8UN series, pg 1271 in my old 21st edition) the minor dia / bore should be 1.3647" for internal threads.

By the way from same book a 1 1/2" UNC thread would be 6 TPI, 1 1/2" UNF thread would be 12 TPI.

If you are going to be doing a lot of unusual-size thread work it would be a good idea to get a Machinery's Handbook (any edition). They are an invaluable reference for all mechanical work.

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Do you have anything else that fits the same spindle nose? If so just measure the hole in that.

[Roderick JenkinsParticipant @roderickjenkins93242]

Alan,

Just a point for clarification: UNC, UNF, Metric coarse, Metric fine, BSF, BSW and BA are all standards that are really meant to define sets of fastenings – basically nuts and bolts.

Threads for things like lathe noses do not necessarily follow these standards so your thread is not necessarily a UNC thread. If it is American (unified) it will have a 60 degree thread angle (as will metric) and if it is a British (Whitworth) thread then it will be a 55 degree angle. So looking at a set of thread tables for a near match will not necessarily give you the right answer. I think you really need to measure the thread angle: A couple of bits of card cut to 55 degrees and 60 degrees will tell you what you need to know.

Having said all that, It us usually the register rather than the thread that is important in getting a good fit so a slack thread of the correct pitch but wrong thread angle will probably be fine.

HTH,

Rod

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Confirm my 20th edition agrees with Jeff's 1.3647" which is a smaller hole than the German 35.1mm ( 1.382" ).

This is probably due to a different view about how tight the fit should be. Matching internal and external threads made to exactly the same dimensions would be impractically tight, prone to jam, and made worse by tiny manufacturing errors or dirt. Thread specifications allow for this, which is why the internal and external dimensions of threads don't quite match.

If the internal thread hole is bored a little oversize accidentally or deliberately, the two parts will screw together more easily, less metal is cut, but the join will be slightly weaker. Make the starting hole much too big, and the fit becomes inaccurate and seriously weak. If you do a trial run, I'd go with the German suggestion and see if it's 'good enough'. Cutting the thread into the tighter American hole will be more work and – perhaps – not much benefit.

Ordinary commercial nuts and bolts are a distinctly loose fit.

Dave

Edit: pesky smileys.

Edited By SillyOldDuffer on 19/05/2019 16:14:42

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Dave, diameters don't really determine how tight the thread is, just the engagement. It is the fit of the flanks that determines tightness hence the use of thread wires to accurately measure a thread as these contact the flanks not OD or ID.

Edited By JasonB on 19/05/2019 16:19:53

[Howard LewisParticipant @howardlewis46836]

You are talking about the thread on the nose of the Dividing Head? Are any other threads on it Imperial? What make is it? If UK, probably 55 degree, Whit form threads. If American, possibly Unified with 60 degree threads. If European, or more recent Far Eastern most likely totbe Metyric, 60 degree thread, but the pitch may be (Older far eastern can be direct copies with Whit form threads, like my RF25 Mill/Drill)

The thread for the ER32 Clamp Nut will be 40 x 1.5mm, so your adaptor will stick out a little way from the Dividing head.

HTH

Howard

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

The other easy way to find the size is to look up another 8tpi UN thread and simply add or subtract the difference in major diameters.

1" x 8tpi UNC is a standard size and has a basic minor diameter for internal threads of 0.8647 on many charts found by Google.

difference between a 1" thread and a 1.5" thread is 0.5"

Simply add 0.8647" and 0.5" and you get 1.3647" that is confirmed by jeff's sizes simples.

 

Edited By JasonB on 19/05/2019 16:54:11

[Alan .204Participant @alan-204]

1.364 is what I've gone with and all seams OK, it's a Vertex dividing head and the thread is 8 unc I know it's uncommon for this head as I bought a back plate for this module and it didn't fit the supplier couldn't belive the size and thread either till I sent him some photos of it, it really is an odd ball, maybe it was made at the end of the day on friaday, Jason I have a female thread to measure but the fit really is shite hence cutting a new one. I wanted to get it right, with the help received from you guys I'm nearly there so thanks every one, by the way I did measure it with a Whitworth pitch gauge, close but the imperial thread gauge is pretty much a perfect fit not pretty much it is.

Thanks Alan.

[Brian HParticipant @brianh50089]

Alan, if your thread gauge is a perfect fit then that would indicate a Whitworth form.

If you are anywhere near M1 Jcn 28 then you are welcome to borrow my 1 1/2" X 8 tpi BSF tap.

Brian

Edited By Brian H on 19/05/2019 18:25:06

[not done it yetParticipant @notdoneityet]

While getting the thread to the correct form, presumably the fit is not that important – as in the item needs to be retained on register surfaces, the thread simply securing the part in the correct registration position. A very tight, close fitting thread might even prevent the registration surfaces locating precisely, and so need easing off?

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Hmm,

1. Chronos sell Morse Taper Chuck Adaptors for Rotary Tables 3 MT with With Boxford Thread (1 1/2 x 8 TPI) suitable for Vertex and Soba tables.
2. lathes.co.uk's Boxford entry includes: 'The main dimensions of the original South Bend spindle, with its 1.5" x 8 t.p.i. nose, were unchanged, and indeed stayed the same on the ordinary V-belt drive Boxfords until the end of production. An interesting note in the Company's records states that: From Serial 1360 all machines have an 8 t.p.i. Whitworth form spindle nose – a reference to the fact that the first batch must have had an exact copy of the South Bend fitting with its American 60° thread angle (the Whitworth is 55&deg.

So Alan might have an attachment to fit the South Bend 60° thread, or the similar 55° Whitworth. How confusing!

Occurs to me the quickest solution might be to replace the MT3 Boxford adaptor currently in the Vertex with an off-the-shelf MT3 ER32 collet chuck. Not, of course, if Alan is using this as a learning opportunity! Why is nothing ever simple?

Dave

[Alan .204Participant @alan-204]

Brian the thread pitch gauge is a perfect fit, the 60 degree pitch gauge fits not the 55 degree Whitworth I checked it also, It may seam like a bit of pissing about but it’s been a good learning cure especially on a metric lathe, it’s done now and it came out on size and fits the dividing head realy well just have the taper to do on the other end then it’s finished.

Thanks again, Alan.

[Author]

Posts