The true cost of Diesel?

[Mike PooleParticipant @mikepoole82104]

Oxford is probably top of the list of car unfriendly cities, I am sure they would not want to lose this ranking by not being the first to turn the screw some more. I usually go to Reading.

Mike

[MikeParticipant @mike89748]

Vintagengineer, I like your cartoon. It's not that electric cars are cleaner than petrol or diesel, but a reflection on the fact that we are never presented with the full facts.

[ChrisHParticipant @chrish]

Mike – precisely!

[vintagengineerParticipant @vintagengineer]

Being cynical I think the car manufacturers are behind the push for electric cars.

[MWParticipant @mw27036]

Posted by vintagengineer on 07/11/2017 12:22:14:

Being cynical I think the car manufacturers are behind the push for electric cars.

If it was cheap enough to make and good enough to turn a profit they'd sell you a tricycle.

[David Standing 1Participant @davidstanding1]

Posted by Martin Kyte on 07/11/2017 09:21:34:

Posted by David Standing 1 on 07/11/2017 08:55:47:

Posted by Martin Kyte on 07/11/2017 08:50:23:

So a petrol fueled deisel engine then.

:0)

Nope, a petrol fuelled Diesel engine

I apologise.

None required, but thank you nevertheless

[Bob StevensonParticipant @bobstevenson13909]

…….Not trying to waylay this topic but liquid nitrogen engines may be a way forward if only to run the one million refrigeration units currently on EU roads……..

…….Free talk central London on thurs………http://www.engineeringclub.org.uk/cool-compresion.html

[Martin KyteParticipant @martinkyte99762]

So if we want to be truely fussy.

Deisel engine – a compression ignition engine created by Herr Deisel (which could be running on petrol)

deisel engine – an engine running on deisel fuel (which could be a steam engine using deisel fuel to fire the boiler)

Martin

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by Martin Kyte on 08/11/2017 09:34:32:

So if we want to be truely fussy.

Deisel engine – a compression ignition engine created by Herr Deisel (which could be running on petrol)

deisel engine – an engine running on deisel fuel (which could be a steam engine using deisel fuel to fire the boiler)

Martin

.

Logically sound, Martin

'though, if we want to be truly fussy …

Deisel Diesel

deisel diesel

MichaelG.

 

Edited By Michael Gilligan on 08/11/2017 09:48:33

[Martin KyteParticipant @martinkyte99762]

aha the dreaded figner dexliskia sroikes agin.

Martin

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Posted by Martin Kyte on 08/11/2017 09:50:24:

aha the dreaded figner dexliskia sroikes agin.

Martin

The Reverend Awdry spells it 'Diseasel' and he wrote proper books!

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

Posted by Mike on 07/11/2017 10:53:41:

Vintagengineer, I like your cartoon. It's not that electric cars are cleaner than petrol or diesel, but a reflection on the fact that we are never presented with the full facts.

But when did you last see a power station belching black smoke?

The point of EVs is that pollution can be reduced in many ways;

• Power stations are more efficient than many small internal combustion engines.
• It's much more practical to both reduce (e.g. NOX scrubbers, particle scrubbers, perhaps carbon capture) and accurately monitor pollution fro power stations.
• An increasing proportion of the grid power is from low-carbon, low pollution sources (wind, nuclear, solar).
• EVs can be charged intelligently to make maximum use of excess grid capacity and improve efficiency.
• Electricity distribution has less impact than liquid fuel distribution.

So while it may simply look like the pollution is simply displaced, the truth is far more complicated.

An obvious comparison is with the clean air act when millions of people stopped burning coal and went to gas or electrical heating. Now did that have an impoact or not?

(I note that the clean air acts made burning coal illegal in many places, far more draconian and I'm sure the same people would have been complaining!)

Neil

[MikeParticipant @mike89748]

Neil, I take your point. As an aside, you mention low carbon, low pollution sources as wind, nuclear and solar. What's happened to hydro electricity, which has been with us here in Scotland for many years? Without resorting to Google I can't tell you when the last hydro dam was built, but it must have been a long time ago. Hydro seems to be almost a dirty word now, so does anyone know why? I remember, maybe about 15 years ago, when there was a major problem with a power station in the north of England, the Scottish Hydro Board fed enough power into the grid to keep the city of Newcastle going for, I think, two months.

Edited By Mike on 08/11/2017 11:03:46

[Russell EberhardtParticipant @russelleberhardt48058]

Posted by Neil Wyatt on 08/11/2017 09:58:57:

But when did you last see a power station belching black smoke?

True, but can you see the CO2 emissions?

Russell

[Martin KyteParticipant @martinkyte99762]

"So while it may simply look like the pollution is simply displaced, the truth is far more complicated." Neil

I think that is the whole point with NOX isn't it. NOX is a problem in cities because the concentrations are so high.

Not all pollution is equal. With NOX it's the peak concentration acting on individuals in a specific location, with CO2 it's the global average affecting th entire planet. Domestic coal fires were only ever made illegal in urban environments.

[MikeParticipant @mike89748]

When the moaners show film of pollution coming from coal-burning power stations, they invariably show clouds of harmless steam coming from cooling towers. The BBC is the worst offender. But Russell is right – you can't see CO2.

[not done it yetParticipant @notdoneityet]

Mike,

Gridwatch is a good indication of leccy generation types. Coal fired generation has been zero on numerous weekends over the summer.

But hydro output is also shown. Many smaller hydro plants run at reduced capacity because the income is higher than running at maximum possible (they get bigger subsidy payments if below a certain power – stupid, I know, but fact!)

And they are not building any more rivers, either – again most of the hydro is from smaller almost run-of-river sites, where the head is not particularly high, I believe.

There has been a scheme proposed, which would cost billions, to provide storage for umpteen gigawatt hours of storage, so that more renewables could be used to pump water to the installation as an energy storage medium….

They are putting in some new hydro above Drumnadrochit using some of the water which would go over the Divach Falls, I believe. Seen the access tracks but I can't remember the size of the generators. So, yes, they are installing extra generation, where economical and when funds permit.

[Bob Brown 1Participant @bobbrown1]

Fossil fuels are also used to heat our houses and contribute to NOx and CO2 emissions so unless you intend to move to rather expensive electric heating will continue. If we were to switch to electric cars and add in the load of heating our homes with electric the grid simply would not cope and require a massive upgrade even at street level.

[MikeParticipant @mike89748]

So far it seems to be all about electric cars. What about the haulage industry – not a lot seems to be said about electric trucks.

[David Standing 1Participant @davidstanding1]

Posted by Mike on 08/11/2017 13:55:59:

So far it seems to be all about electric cars. What about the haulage industry – not a lot seems to be said about electric trucks.

 

The payload of a 44 tonne artic will be around 26 to 30 tonnes max.

I suspect the weight of a battery pack required to get 44 tonnes from the south to Scotland would be around 26 to 30 tonnes, equalling zero payload!!

 

 

Edited By David Standing 1 on 08/11/2017 14:12:51

[Martin KyteParticipant @martinkyte99762]

The best electric truck is a train.

Martin

[VicParticipant @vic]

Posted by Martin Kyte on 08/11/2017 14:39:41:

The best electric truck is a train.

Martin

Quite right. When the oil eventually runs out they may even consider replacing many aircraft with 600 mph maglev trains.

[not done it yetParticipant @notdoneityet]

What about the haulage industry – not a lot seems to be said about electric trucks.

Fear not, here are a couple:

https://www.daimler.com/products/trucks/mercedes-benz/mercedes-benz-electric-truck.html

Tesla electric semi truck reveal confirmed for November 16

BYD have their truck operating for Loblaws in Ca. There are reports of a fleet of light trucks operating in California. The Swedes/Norwegians have their eclectic 'trolley bus' type trucks operating on a stretch of road gitted out with overhead conductors.

There are doubtless other developments which are likely found with a suitable "goggle", or similar, internet search.

 

(Edited to add the merc link)

Edited By not done it yet on 08/11/2017 16:39:43

[Howard LewisParticipant @howardlewis46836]

A local company that was owned by Dresser Rand at the time (known here as Peter Brotherhood) was working on a turbine that rotated in the same direction independant of which way the waves were moving the air that actually drove it. Tests in the field were quite promising, until things suddenly went quiet. Vested interests or massive capital inputs?

Ideal for a DC – AC invertor system to feed the grid.

Wonder what happened all the tidal and wave power developments?

You don't hear much about the Swansea or Cardiff Bay barrages, now and the proposed Severn tidal power barrage was stopped in its tracks.

After all, you have two tides each day (Four if you are on the Solent) surely that would deliver predictable electrical power, free of the pollution (except for that produced during construction).

Will still be some time before battery powered road vehicles (Bring back the Trolley Bus?) capable of long distances are available and viable. The question of how the Marine environment propels itself remains to be resolved.

Howard

[Author]

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