The Perpetual Demise of the Model engineer

[LukerParticipant @luker]

This is one for all the members of a live steam or model engineering club. This article was published some time back in Model Engineer, and I’ve just uploaded the first part to Patreon (free public access), for a wider readership. Hopefully this will be useful to some of the clubs out there…

https://www.patreon.com/posts/perpetual-demise-131876309

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

I seem to remember reading it at the time and felt it assumed that the “model engiineer” was a person who just built locos and ran them on a track and that the title would have been better as “The demise of the model loco orientated club”.

Model engineering covers a far greater range of subjects, one only needs to look at the results of the recent survey to see that only 30% of readers belong to a club and that live steam locos were towards the bottom 1/3rd of what interested them. Also only 10% want a long series which is what it takes to describe the build of a loco.

There are also the large number of people who don’t consider themselves model engineers but who have a home workshop which is a “tool” used for their other hobbies such as RC, clocks, car/bike restoration, etc. As well as those that just like to restore machines and make tools.

Even those that do make “models” may just enjoy the actual making and not want to run the model much after an initial test run or two to satisfy themselves that it works. It then goes on the shelf and they move onto the next one. For these there is a lot less reason to join a club particularly if their main focus is running locos and maintaining the track to raise money for the upkeep.

Those that make Traction engines and want to run them are probably better catered for at steam rallies which often have a miniatures section than they would be at a club. Likewise those that make open crank hit and miss, hot air, etc will fit right in at the various rallies where similar full size engines are on display.

So maybe it is just a demise of one part of the hobby not “model engineering” as a whole and not helped by the attitude of some that Locos are the only form of model engineering.

[LukerParticipant @luker]

Valid points.

Most of the article actually deals with broadening the normal ‘live steam loco club’ definition and bringing other aspects of the hobby into the fold. The article gives examples of applied small scale engineering in making parts and badges for an old Harley in my back yard etc. The article shows how videos can be used to promote ME (in that example it was a large stationary engine being started).

Personally, my interest in live steam loco’s is due to the complexity of the design and difficulty in making all the parts for corrosion etc. Steam loco’s contributes a small percentage of my builds, but does give me a chance to practice certain engineering fundamentals that aren’t a consideration in IC etc.

The live-steam-scratch-builders are the rock stars of model engineering, anything less than a complex 5000hour build is singing in the shower 😉

 

 

[Dave SParticipant @daves59043]

I’m not a “model engineer”, I’m one of the others who happen to like making “things” as an alternative to the digital day job.

I attended a couple of meetings at my local club and it was just to (I hesitate to say it) old and boring. I have little interest in small steam locos, so I didn’t join.

My “club” is a selection of forums like this and Reddit.

Dave

[parovozParticipant @parovoz]

Our ME club is growing with membership increasing over the last few years. Our younger members are embracing modern manufacturing methods and we encourage different activities. YES there is still a big railway and a locomotive core, but our membership are involved in a broader range of activities. We have boat builders, car restorers, stationary steam engine folk, model railway ( HO and N ), Armoured vehicles, etc.

But I do think that ‘Old and Boring’ could be levelled at clubs. We as model engineers need to encourage all forms. Listening to the chat between our members, we are enthusiasts of ‘engineering based’ interests in the multifaceted way of engineering in general and we must embrace all enthusiasts that come to our club. I like to think that we do ‘reasonably’ well at our own club.

Our railway, whilst now very extensive, owes more to civil engineering than mechanical engineering 🙂

 

[Nigel Graham 2Participant @nigelgraham2]

Anecdotally at least, Dave S raises a common point. Although obviously we cannot condemn all clubs by the bechavour of just one, it does seem some are so centred on railways that other interests dare not cross the running-shed’s threshold.

It may be that some will welcome the clock-makers, the ornamental-turners, the buidlers of traction-engines or radial aero-engines; but no obviously, so deter by omission rather than commission.

There are though dangers by no means confined to model-engineering or any craft hobby, clubs; those of cliques, proprietorial attitudes and unfriendly individuals. I think these more “fatal” than other means to a demise.

The first is obvious: small herds who regard themselves as somehow special even within the club, and do not welcome newcomers. The visitor who chances to meet only the clique, which tends to form among the regulars anyway, will son be put off by the unwelcoming attitude.

The proprietorial attitude is often linked to the clique. This can develop among individuals who have spent years and quite possibly a lot of their own money (indirectly, by their own transport or tools costs) building the club’s assets and/or serving on its committee that they regard the place as their own.

The unfriendly individual might genuinely be friendly but shy and not easily sociable towards strangers, so appears standoff-ish and unwelcoming although manages somehow to fit into the club in his or her own way. Far worse though is the type who thinks him or her self special and although perhaps rubbing along with fellow-members, or has a peculiarly abrasive sense of humour. This type can seem (or be) very arrogant, deterring all but the most determined and understanding, potential member.

 

I have seen examples of all three, in different clubs; not all in model-engineering.

My own, and another, caving clubs offering self-catering accommodation to guest clubs, both suffered from the cliques and the “proprietors” at various times in the past, giving both clubs a bad reputation that tooks some time to dispel.

One, only one, member of my own model-engineering society was so rude to three members who had driven some twenty miles from their homes, bringing a locomotive with them, to help at a public event that the three left! The loco owner was particularly sensitive and the others reported to me he was badly hurt by being told “I say who runs on our tracks” – which was not even true.

.

All three forms of misbehaviour can have a very deleterious effect on any club, be it arts-and-crafts, outdoor-pursuits, sports or simply a social-club with no specific hobby.

 

However, I think things have changed within model-engineering, and to the better.

For example, another society to which I belong was founded several decades ago by people whose own branch of the hobby was not really understood or accepted by many clubs. Now though, I think more railway-based clubs are more accepting of non-railway interests. My home society has slowly developed from almost exclusively railway-based, to numbering more miniature traction-engines than locomotives – plus stationary engines – among its members; of whom we have more than in the past. Some of the owners have both road and rail steam! So too, many of the club stands at the exhibitions, display wide ranges of models, tools, clocks and so on.

 

Jason’s point about railway-based clubs revolving around having to operate the railway to raise money to maintain the railway, is valid, because it can make the club look as if that is all it does.

In the end though, a society devoted to a hobby is a bunch of people who should be sociable in sharing their hobby, and how healthy the society is, especially including welcoming new members, is very much down to the people within it.

 

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Model Engineering has always been a broad church, and old editions of the magazine show it’s focus changes over time.

Some model engineers assume ‘model’ means making small copies of things, but that’s only one definition.  Judging by the content of the early magazine issues, there wasn’t much interest in making small copies, and modelling steam locomotives only became popular 25 years later thanks to LBSC   Percival Marshall was a clever chap.  I think he preferred the other meanings of model: a very good example, and something or someone that deserves to be copied by others. Likewise, he didn’t insist that engineers be scientifically trained and formally qualified: rather he left the door open to the wider definition of “someone with technical skills”, and not just mechanical either.  Nothing narrow about early ME!

My oldest ME magazine is mostly about full-size electrical, wireless and motorbikes, plus a smidgen of railway news.  There’s nothing about making ‘small copies’.   Back then, seems most ME readers were interested in futures and innovation.  Across the 20th Century we see shifts of interest involving radio, boats, model aircraft, IC and electric motors, scientific instruments, photography, and steam.   For about 10 years ME was dominated by Traction Engines.  Now there’s considerable interest in retro repairs and old-school workshop methods, and not many build long-term projects.   This too is a temporary phase, and I could argue today’s Model Engineering is narrow and stultified compared with a century ago.

The challenge is that the world is moving on.  The hobby isn’t dying, it’s changing.  Youth are more interested in current technology than basic metalwork.  The danger is we damage the hobby by trying to sell youngsters chuff-chuffs, HSS, Imperial, ancient tool brands, Whitworth, hobby metalworking and the glories of British smoke-stack industry.  Youngsters consider most of that irrelevant, and they are not wrong!.

Luker’s article has considerable merit – it suggests ways of attracting new blood.   Jason is right too – ME isn’t all about locomotives!  Though I don’t know what the balance should be, I’m certain the answer isn’t resisting change!  We have to adapt, and that’s hard.

Dave

 

 

[BazyleParticipant @bazyle]

The ‘people problems’ mentioned above are not ME related and are prevalent in every group, club, or society such as Churches, Women’s Institutes, garden clubs, housing residents’ associations, and probably every company business. It is human nature.
However 99% of MEs agree it is all encompassing and the only time you see the ‘trains only’ accusation is in articles and forums from a few individuals with a chip on their shoulder wanting to create controversy.
The USA equivalent of this forum and magazine is Home Shop Machinist which is more obviously not model steam oriented.

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

I’m not sure what magazines Dave is looking at but Vol1 of Model Engineer & Electrician while still covering a broad range of subjects certainly has a far amount of “model” content. I’ve three engines drawn up from these few early mags that may at some point get built and they are Model engines not the fractional horse power working engines that are also featured ouite a bit in the adverts along with ads for model loco and stationaly engines.

Anyone wants to have a read then the first volume can be read on Archive.org You may just need to register to get more than the first few pages but it is free.

[bernard towersParticipant @bernardtowers37738]

Intertesting what Jason says about the figures in the survey about loco builders as the latest mag has 22/3 pages of loco articles an 80 page mag of which 18 plus pages are adverts.

[JasonB]

On JasonB Said:

[…] Anyone wants to have a read then the first volume can be read on Archive.org […]

and the subtitle clearly describes the target demographic:

a journal of mechanics and electricity for amateurs and students.

 

MichaelG.

[ShugsParticipant @shugs]

Some years back my son, who was just starting his teens, began to seriously developed his interest in model car kits. There was a local model railway club nearby which, on a Tuesday night, let out its room to a model aircraft club (not its workshop/machine room). The aircraft club members built plastic kits, the same as my son and I thought that there has to be a crossover in methods and techniques. I contacted the club and asked if he could came along, because of his age it was agreed that I should also come along. We tried it for 3 weeks but as no one spoke to him or even smiled any form of welcome, we gave up. Made me realise that Nevil Shute’s “Trustee from the Toolroom” was pure fiction.

[BazyleParticipant @bazyle]

Having now fully read the text document I suggest the hypothetical chairman left out one element which is actually the most important. The social aspects a club can offer. It is finally being recognised how important friendship and social interaction is to general wellbeing and a healthy life so a clubhouse rather than just a loco shed/workshop is an advantage.
One of my clubs is not allowed public running or a clubhouse by the lease but the monthly lecture meetings at a church hall have a coffee break mid talk which is very popular for a natter.
The other club does public running which is a great opportunity to chat to visitors and in slack periods chat to other members and in the winter season a monthly hall meeting. Plus there is a coffee corner in the workshop to support weekly maintenance sessions.

I look forward to part 2 of the exposition and how to attract modern youth.  As a prequel some years ago at the Ally Pally show one club representative explained that his club encouraged visiting teenagers to take a role as guard, station master etc. The aspect of being in charge of something and feeling important as part of the team made them want to come back and keep involved.

[Howard LewisParticipant @howardlewis46836]

Clubs can self destruct ir they are not careful.

One friend left the club because “It was becoming too cliquey” Not my experience.

But “Bits and Pieces” nights can become three or four groups chatting among themselves, with little interchange.

Some of us made a point of greeting any new faces, and introducing them to Committee members and others with like interests.

At one Committee meeting, a senior Road Engine enthusiast warned that he would probably not be renewing, and nor would others.

When I complained, at a Committee meeting that we were ignoring Road Engines, (I am not into Road Engines or Locos) and would rue it, I was shouted down

Finally, I left, together with the Vice Chairman, when our pleas for attention to the Road Engine fraternity, and for taster sessions for potential members to try using a machine, under close supervision. The committee was becoming obsessed with a track to the exclusion of everything else, it seems.

Sadly, it cost me a lot of acquaintances, and I miss organising club stands at local shows, but the club no longer seems to participate. So, I fear that the sands are running out!

So there is a dreadful warning of how NOT to do it, by failing to cater for all tastes.

Sad rather than embittered.

Howard

[Howard LewisParticipant @howardlewis46836]

In contrast, some good news!

A club that I visit far too infrequently (it is a long way away) is thriving.

It has multigauge ground level and raised tracks, plus Gauge 1 and OO layouts.

They have a boating pool, and I am sure that Road Engine enthusiasts are catered for..

They have a thriving junior section, with its own workshop.

Visitors are made very welcome. It is a pleasure to visit.

They exhibit at shows and are quire visible

So they can expect to grow

If only all clubs were like this!

Howard

[bernard towersParticipant @bernardtowers37738]

Sad is right Howard I and a few others have had the same experience it all seems to be how many ride tickets can we sell.

[Howard LewisParticipant @howardlewis46836]

No doubt, for many clubs, public running keeps the club viable.

CATCH 22!

Public Liability insurance is an absolute necessity if hauling the public, but can absorb virtually all members subs. So you have to have it although it severely damages financial viability, so that the track income can cover other activities.

And that covers site rent, Road Engine enthusiasts, and any static displays, whilst paying for room hire and speaker fees.

Surprising how many of the public do not read or obey the “Please do not touch” notices or warnings about cutting tools, so insurance is needed!

A club needs to cater for all tastes, to attract and keep members, to be financially viable.

Howard

[LukerParticipant @luker]

Next instalment for those interested….

https://www.patreon.com/posts/perpetual-demise-133222215

[Bo’sunParticipant @bosun58570]

I came across a club (model engineering society) last year, similar or maybe even the same one Howard refers to.  I visited their annual show and was pleased to see the variety of engineering and modelling displayed.  Yes, there was a good smattering of loco’s, but also, remote controlled vehicles, scale models, hot air balloons, meccano, scalectrix, boats, tanks, live steam and more.

It was the “St Albans and District Model Engineering Society”.  A good show if you’ve got youngsters, reasonable admission price and OK parking.  Their next show is September I believe.

I have no connection with the Society, came across it by accident, and was pleasantly surprised at what we saw.

[Chris CrewParticipant @chriscrew66644]

Here is some evidence of a thriving society:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/videos/cj3rlxj87kro

Yes, it is primarily based around the railway track the revenue from which supports the club in all its activities and there is a roadway for traction engines etc. which is currently being extended – by the loco-men! Admittedly, there have been the same contentions raised over the years as some have mentioned above but the fundamental issue is that I have never seen the public queuing week after week to pay £1.50 to view a stationary engine, clock or machine tool accessory. But I do see them queuing for a train ride and that revenue supports everything else the club endeavours to undertake.

[Luker]

On Luker Said:

Next instalment for those interested….

https://www.patreon.com/posts/perpetual-demise-133222215

Recommended reading for anyone concerned with the future of the hobby!   Don’t bother if anything longer than a paragraph is too much hard work, if so  I’d sum it up as saying, more politely than this:

• old-men dominate the hobby because they have time and money
• old-men have virtues and vices.  Much good in the virtues, but it’s the vices that do the damage.  These include die-in-a-ditch negative beliefs that youngsters can’t swallow, such as:
  • old ways are the best   (rejecting Metric, carbide, CAD, CNC, sustainable energy, AI, etc.)
  • practical skills outweigh theory (youngsters don’t have practical skills yet, but know gaining them is only a matter of time and training.)
  • experience trumps new ideas, even when experience is irrelevant, obsolete, or misleading.
  • common-sense outweighs best-practice.  (Youngsters are taught*** best practice, and, in a good school, that there is no such thing as “common-sense”)
  • youth are no good (an insulting bad attitude)
  • change is bad and should be resisted.  (Youngsters do not fear change will leave them behind.)
  • evidence doesn’t matter when we believe otherwise.  Believing does not require data, logic or understanding: it’s lazy. (Youngsters are taught to work from evidence)
• Bottom line, avoid negatives when attracting newcomers to the hobby.   Tell them interesting positives!  Do not pin them in a corner and drone on about inches, Myfords and how the hobby is going to the dogs!

Much good in this article, especially if you don’t like it!

Dave

*** What kids are taught varies.  Not all schools and teachers get it right…

 

[parovozParticipant @parovoz]

You might find this of interest…..

 

[BazyleParticipant @bazyle]

Thanks, another interesting read. Worth reading as I only recognise Dave’s last bullet point as being in the main article.
I venture that a more recent approach rather than badges for the Harley would be badges for an electric scooter!.
I also now try to ask early on if the youngster has access to a 3D printer at home or at school. There are designs for G1 waggons that can be entirely printed including wheels and even axles. This can give them something over a weekend that can then be ‘improved’ with eg metal coupling hooks filed by hand which will be an easy introduction to working metal.

[bernard towersParticipant @bernardtowers37738]

Sorry Bazyle but you still seem to insist on going down the steam route.

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Yep far more likely to want to print a Robot, Excavator, Car, Drone, Nurf Gun, etc than a steam train. All of which don’t require a track so they can use them where they like.

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