The Chocolate Fireguard as designed by Mercedes Benz

[SamsarandaParticipant @samsaranda]

Like those statistics Vic, my Honda isn’t listed so I must be alright.

Dave W

[martin perman 1Participant @martinperman1]

Sadly all this modern technology, hybrid and electric vehicles etc is going to ruin my hobby, I havent seen one electric/hybrid with a tow bar because I suspect that their towing capability is either zero or a lot less because of the distance it will travel pulling 1 to 2 ton loads like I currently do and as I spend my weekends in the middle of fields I wont have the means to charge them either to get home, their is also one very big draw back and that is I cant afford to buy one at todays prices and I would also worry about buying second hand because there is no way I would be happy with second hand batteries and again new replacements would outway the price of the vehicle.

Martin P

[alan-lloydParticipant @alan-lloyd]

We live in Norfolk the standard of driving is abysmal, no signals and no curtesy, has to be seen to believed

[Mike PooleParticipant @mikepoole82104]

Martin, you should be ideally placed to generate some power for recharging your electric vehicle, hauling a fair load that you quote might need a commercial type electric vehicle. A Tesla would have ample power but I don’t think they would have considered towing. A lot of people will need a towing capability for their hobbies when you consider car racing, boating and camper caravanners, builders often use trailers as well. No doubt a solution will emerge.

Mike

[not done it yetParticipant @notdoneityet]

Posted by martin perman on 28/04/2019 19:29:02:

Sadly all this modern technology, hybrid and electric vehicles etc is going to ruin my hobby, I havent seen one electric/hybrid with a tow bar because I suspect that their towing capability is either zero or a lot less because of the distance it will travel pulling 1 to 2 ton loads like I currently do and as I spend my weekends in the middle of fields I wont have the means to charge them either to get home, their is also one very big draw back and that is I cant afford to buy one at todays prices and I would also worry about buying second hand because there is no way I would be happy with second hand batteries and again new replacements would outway the price of the vehicle.

Martin P

When you say you have not seen one, do you mean ‘in the flesh’, or in the literature? Tesla model X can have a towbar fitted. I daresay the Rivian will tow, too!

[BazyleParticipant @bazyle]

Electric and towing. Funnily enough I was wondering the same last week but immediately found the Rav 4. The electric hybrid version actually has enhanced towing capability to 3.5T perhaps because of the added traction control electric drive provides. Way outside my price range unfortunately.

[martin perman 1Participant @martinperman1]

Mike,

There lies the rub, a commercial vehicle is of no use because my wife is an invalid and can only just get into our car let alone a van, rally sites impose a curfew on the use of generators usually after 22:00, I cant even fully charge properly my wifes and my mobility scooters because they need more than four hours constant charging.

I can describe Teslas cars as very very expensive and well out of my pocket, £75,000 new and 7hrs charging at 220 vac, in a field impossible. One of my engines to drive to drive a suitable generator would need to be at least 10hp, an engine of this size that I show would weigh at least two ton and impractical.

My Subaru diesel returns on a good run 52 mpg, with my trailer in tow with a load it will manage 35 mpg so I think it fair to assume that an electric vehicle that has a 600 mile range will halve its range when towing its own weight as well as itself.

Martin P

[doubletopParticipant @doubletop]

Oooo!! one of my grumpy old git topics

I think that the camera on these systems needs to be turned around and pointed at the driver. When it detects that the driver isn’t paying attention to their driving, fiddling with their, phone, satnav, radio, or just chatting to the passenger then the car slows down. That would prevent many more accidents than checking speed limts.

I’m of the opinion that the addition of these ‘features’ in the quest for autonomous vehicles is contributing to accidents. Drivers are relying on the gizmos too much and are not actually in control of the car.

The other month I watch a driver backing out of a parking space eyes glued on his reversing camera. He backed straight into the path of another vehicle coming down the down the road.

A friend of mine was telling me of a car he hired that he realised that the cruise control adjusted his speed to that of the vehicle in front. When the vehicle moved out of the way it resumed to the set speed. He got quite used to using it. When he got back into his own car and used the cruise control he nearly went into the back of another car….

If you want an insight into the technical, legal and moral questions of about autonomous vehicles have a look at this book on Amazon Free for Kindle

**LINK**

I’ll save electric vehicles for another time…..

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by Doubletop on 28/04/2019 22:08:28:

If you want an insight into the technical, legal and moral questions of about autonomous vehicles have a look at this book on Amazon Free for Kindle

**LINK**

.

Thanks for the link

After that brief diversion to the USofA, I returned to Amazon UK and downloaded it.

MichaelG.

[V8EngParticipant @v8eng]

Autonomous Cars are on a six stage progression and we are part way along that process, this not random as some people appear to believe.

This link link may show what to expect.

Things to come?

Doubletop’s driver monitoring appears to be part of the scheme, in fact my own four year old VW has a system to detect if the driver is alert (well that’s what the instruction book says anyway).

 

Edited By V8Eng on 28/04/2019 22:49:25

[Mike PooleParticipant @mikepoole82104]

Posted by martin perman on 28/04/2019 21:16:00:

Mike,

There lies the rub, a commercial vehicle is of no use because my wife is an invalid and can only just get into our car let alone a van, rally sites impose a curfew on the use of generators usually after 22:00, I cant even fully charge properly my wifes and my mobility scooters because they need more than four hours constant charging.

I can describe Teslas cars as very very expensive and well out of my pocket, £75,000 new and 7hrs charging at 220 vac, in a field impossible. One of my engines to drive to drive a suitable generator would need to be at least 10hp, an engine of this size that I show would weigh at least two ton and impractical.

My Subaru diesel returns on a good run 52 mpg, with my trailer in tow with a load it will manage 35 mpg so I think it fair to assume that an electric vehicle that has a 600 mile range will halve its range when towing its own weight as well as itself.

Martin P

My reply was slightly tongue in cheek about the stationary engines being used to charge a vehicle but you certainly raise a serious point that we are actually far from having a direct replacement for the vehicles we have today at an affordable cost. A Tesla could replace my current vehicles but the cost is outrageous, even the more mainstream electric vehicles are expensive and of a range that I would regard as deficient even though 90% of the time it would be ok. As my wife is averse to flying, long distance continental drives are core to our holidays and this would need a vehicle with the range of a Tesla and the recharging facilities, we are not there yet unless you have deep pockets.

Mike

Edited By Mike Poole on 28/04/2019 22:56:33

[doubletopParticipant @doubletop]

Posted by V8Eng on 28/04/2019 22:31:31:

Autonomous Cars are on a six stage progression and we are part way along that process, this not random as some people appear to believe.

Not random but in a way organic. Various sensors from as far back as ABS, traction control, stability control etc are being developed and tested by all the manufacturers with the long-term intent to integrate them into their autonomous vehicle programme. As part of this development programme they separately or jointly become features on new models.

The technology may well work but at times the human factors seem to be overlooked, unless what is really happening is all the owners of these vehicles are unwittingly guinea pigs. It shouldn’t be a surprise if we found out that all the usage stats for these features were being recorded and downloaded at service time as ‘engineering’ data.

The biggest issue with autonomous vehicles is going to be the legal and moral aspects particularly in the transition period from old to new, when 'gaming' AV's could become a problem.

And then there is this from Elon Musk

**LINK**

 

Edited By Doubletop on 29/04/2019 02:26:05

[pgk pgkParticipant @pgkpgk17461]

Tesla's model X is capable of towing. The S is almost certainly capable but not licensed as such although there is a private interest group somewhere in europe working to get it through euro testing/licensing for towing.

I'll happily chat practicalities and criticisms based on my 7mth ownership. There are certainly some niggles amongst the positives and watt hours per mile on short winter runs gets pretty high.. can be double the summer long trip averages.

Recharging at home on a 230v line @32A is just over 21miles 'summer range' per hour. On Teslas supercharger system one can pull huge power when the car's battery state is between 20-70% but then starts to taper down as the system balances cells. The latest generation of Model3's are capable of top intake of 250KWH on the newest range of chargers when they are deployed and the 300+'ish mile range model3 has a 75KWH battery.

At the moment on my 100KWH S with current superchargers I get a high of 107 KWH draw (superchargers due to be reprogrammed to push that up above 120 and to150 for new battery chemistries on the S). In practical terms I can rock up to a charger with 40 miles of 'summer range' left and leave after 30 mins with 180 miles or 60 mins with 285 miles or wait it out for the full 310.

Trip calculations can get interesting since range is massively extended by going slower so one can figure out whether to blast down the road or pootle and not stop to top up if there's facility at the end. Reality is one needs to stop for comfort breaks anyway.

BP claim to be installing 150KW chargers on all their forecourts starting this year so fast charger network is happening.

Granted it's not a cheap car and was an indulgence but manual driving is a joy with instant torque and no labouring up hills. The level of autonomy currently released UK is limited and takes some experience to know when you can/cannot relax a bit while monitoring it.

If anyone around Mid Wales wants to have a play – you're welcome …it's fun.

[Mick B1Participant @mickb1]

Thanks for that, pgk – it's not often you get an open declaration of what ranges are possible for what realistic inputs.

I nearly got run down by a Tesla in Morrisons carpark a few weeks back – I never heard it coming. I believe the powers that be are aware there's a problem there and that there's some regulation in view to require some sound. I hope there'll be some control over more than just its volume – people will make fashions out of absolutely anything and I can already imagine the adverts to download this or that car tone from the web.

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

Posted by pgk pgk on 29/04/2019 03:31:49:

If anyone around Mid Wales wants to have a play – you're welcome …it's fun.

I think that's most telling.

Mid Wales with sparse settlements and lots of hills is exactly the sort of place where everyone was saying electric cars would be pointless a few years ago.

Neil

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

Posted by Mick B1 on 29/04/2019 09:07:51:

Thanks for that, pgk – it's not often you get an open declaration of what ranges are possible for what realistic inputs.

I nearly got run down by a Tesla in Morrisons carpark a few weeks back – I never heard it coming. I believe the powers that be are aware there's a problem there and that there's some regulation in view to require some sound. I hope there'll be some control over more than just its volume – people will make fashions out of absolutely anything and I can already imagine the adverts to download this or that car tone from the web.

Why not get sound off of R/C model boat or locomotive websites. Who wants a Merlin? Or why not make your tesla sound like a Deltic for April 1st?

Neil

[pgk pgkParticipant @pgkpgk17461]

My wife was concerned for the local wildlife along our lanes with a 'silent' car but they all hear the unavoidable road/tyre noise.

As to not hearng a car in a car park.. well I'm against adding some synthetic sound – it'll make little diference to the mass of folk with headsets on or starting at mobile phones or fighting with kids and shopping trolleys and is just noise pollution. There are enough varieties of electric vehicle being silent out there that the public just needs to, and will adapt. Interestingly one of the safety features of the Tesla is that if it hits a pedestrian (within certain speeds) it's supposed to explosively blow the rear 'frunk' bolts to turn the bonnet into more of a cushion.

As to the earlier comments about reversing on cameras. I do that all the time. rear camera and wingmirrors. the display in the Tesla is huge and sightly fisheyed for a wide field. I find age has limited my ability to twist my neck round and anyway headrests are in the way of direct vision too as are B and C pillars. Rear camera and mirrors give a better total field of view as do the 360deg ultrasonics. Around here it's common to have to reverse up the lane and into a passing space. Granted at night the rear lighting is poor but most public spaces have street lights.

Neil, among the silliness of Tesla 'Easter Eggs' is a function for 'santa mode' where turn signals sound jingle bells inside or the 'emissions control' which sounds farts. One could turn the volume up (it goes to eleven) and wind the windows down and trigger it. Max volume is painfully loud and will play the current music station at max in sentry mode if it detects a break-in (as well as recording the event)

 

I should add that the model3 does have an internal camera..currently not used but doubtless will be vital if/when Tesla starts their planned 'robotaxi' service to keep an eye on passengers with all the contemporary worries about attacks and vandelism.

 

Edited By pgk pgk on 29/04/2019 10:20:50

[Mike PooleParticipant @mikepoole82104]

I visited Darts Farm near Exeter a few days ago which is a retail outlet for farm produce and other stuff etc. As is was a second visit for my wife to get some things I sat in the car and read the paper. They have six Tesla charging bays which I thought was a bit of overkill but while I was sat there the Tesla’s appeared, there were more parked there than I have seen in the 12 bay motorway services near me. The Tesla’s would make a practical vehicle with an impressive range and performance, I suppose they are not expensive for what you get but they are still a big pile of drinking vouchers.

Mike

[Keith HaleParticipant @keithhale68713]

To bring the thread back on topic.

The A Class comes as standard a Speed Limit Assist programme that provides information to the driver that will help him avoid exceeding the speed limit but does not absolve him of his responsibilities.

The system gathers its information solely from "a low level mono camera". There is no input from any database connected to the sat/nav.

The system ceases to provide any information

1) 10 seconds after passing a sign showing the derestricted speed limit or

2) if the vehicle makes a right or left turn at any road junction

but

the camera may attempt to analyse the road ahead and will offer incorrect information for the driver to ignore.

These are not a sign of the system not working. The system is designed to work this way. So the customer, apparently has no redress.

Emails from Mercedes Benz confirm this.

Request for clarification along with information about other "assist" packages is now being dealt with in Maastricht.

In my opinion this system which cannot offer information operate in built up areas or on the open road is unfit for purpose. It is only an assist. It is not to be relied on.

The distracting system cannot be switched off. Nor can it be upgraded.

Thanks for your interest.

Keith

[pgk pgkParticipant @pgkpgk17461]

When the model3 right hand drive version arrives UK it'll be under £40K. Still a lot of money but they plan to have them built to last 1,000,000miles on battery and drive train by the end of this year i.e. built to the same robust standards as commercial lorries. Servicing has also been downgraded from annual to 'when you think something might need attention'

I'm one of the last to have lifetime free supercharging so my major running costs should be tyres. Brake pads last a long time with regen braking. Mind you if something does go wrong out of warranty it is painfully expensive. I'll probably sell mine before warranty expires and by then the market will have changed.

pgk

[martin perman 1Participant @martinperman1]

Posted by pgk pgk on 29/04/2019 10:17:08:

As to not hearng a car in a car park.. well I'm against adding some synthetic sound – it'll make little diference to the mass of folk with headsets on or starting at mobile phones or fighting with kids and shopping trolleys and is just noise pollution. There are enough varieties of electric vehicle being silent out there that the public just needs to, and will adapt. Interestingly one of the safety features of the Tesla is that if it hits a pedestrian (within certain speeds) it's supposed to explosively blow the rear 'frunk' bolts to turn the bonnet into more of a cushion.

I found it sad that you think that the public should adapt to your car, the manufacturers/owners should adapt the vehicle as its them that made it quiet, fitting flashing lights or sound alarms using proximity sensors would be cheap and easy to do.

I fitted a reversing camera to my car after spending £350 repairing my nearside rear wing when I backed into a refuse bin that I couldnt see, I still use my mirrors as well.

Martin P

[RMAParticipant @rma]

Interesting to hear your honest experience with the car. It's a personal thing I know but it would be nice to know what the residual value of your car is when you sell it. Obviously governments around the world are pushing for all electric, mind you I seem to remember something similar with Diesel.

I was reading the other day that the world's supply of Lithium is running out fast and the recovery technique from used batteries isn't very cost effective. I had a look at the new EPace at the Jag club last Autumn but I wasn't impressed. Short range and expensive.

Nice to hear honest reviews.

[pgk pgkParticipant @pgkpgk17461]

I must say sorry to Keith for hijacking his thread. I have heard similar dissatisfaction with so-called traffic sign recognition from other manufacturers (probably buy in the same software) and some cars now having three forward cameras whereas others only have one. The biggest issue with sign recognition or GPS recognition is the 'smart motorway network' – also applies to adaptive speed control. I'm unaware of any system that automatically adjusts to those overhead sign changes. At least in the USA they seem capabe of using their 'lemon laws' and class action suits when manufacturers pull fast ones. Here we just roll over.

Martin, I'm not saying people should adapt to my car. I'm saying that quiet cars should be viewed as a bonus and people should adjust to that (driver and pedestrian) and pay attention to where they're walking.

RMA. I'm not so sure about lithium running out – there's supposed to be huge deposits in S America. the biggest concern has been the child labour over cobalt mining. Once again tesla 'claims' to have very good recycling systems and has some of the lowest cobalt in it's newest chemistry as well as some of the highest overall efficiencies – claimed at 97% in the newest round of permenant magnet motors.

Residual value is poor on any expensive car. I'll probably lose £40K over 3 years but would have done so if I'd bought any £100K car.  Heck, i lost 40% in 3 years on my GT86 – it was just less as a sum. You can avoid some of that buy buying secondhand

I also considered the I-pace and in reality range is less important unless you do long trips.. average commutes and shopping etc will be fine from home charging but, yes, Tesla beats that on range, cost of fuel and speed of charge. Oddly my wife panics over range- refills her 4×4 when it's near half full. We recently went to jaguar showroom and she is lusting after the e-pace (wouldn't let me play with the f-type though – called it silly)

Edited By pgk pgk on 29/04/2019 11:05:15

[not done it yetParticipant @notdoneityet]

The one thing that bugs me about the model 3 is from a recent video of the extent and cost of damage repairs. Other than that, they seem to be an excellent vehicle.

From about 11 minutes into this video.

**LINK**

**LINK**

I will be looking at a few more vids to see if this is typical and look out for what the situation might be like in the UK.

Problem, as I see it, for buying a second hand BEV is the way it may have been charged by the previous owner(s).

Continual fast charging is known to degrade the battery faster (than gentle charge rates to only 80% capacity), as is continual discharging to a low state of charge or continual charging to 100% capacity. Do owners of leased vehicles care about that – I doubt it.

I have decided to buy a new BEV if/when I win £50,000 on the lottery or premium bonds (current prices). Until then, they are out of my sensible price range.

[pgk pgkParticipant @pgkpgk17461]

Not done it yet,

I've heard these horror stories too and met one Tesla owner who needed a crash repair and it took months. The only personlal experience I had was some warranty parts – a cracked backing piece on the turn signal arm but obviosuly driveable. They changed the whole steering wheel/levers system for that one bit of plastic. it was one week for parts and fixed while I waited. I was aware of crash delays when i bought it but I'm privileged to have my '94 200sx to drive if it happens (or the wife's 4×4)

Go for the big win on the lottery and take a look at the new aston-martin electric they plan to start building 2021 (or the tesla roadster if you want 600 mile range)

[Author]

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