Take a look?

[AjohnwParticipant @ajohnw51620]

Posted by John Stevenson on 29/12/2016 16:52:30:

Posted by Ajohnw on 29/12/2016 16:42:36:

Posted by John Stevenson on 29/12/2016 16:33:12:

Have you read it or has your keyboard got diarrhea again ?

Yes I had and just did so again. Inadequate and uses the word opinion and some strength aspects that also come across as opinion.

John

–

How did you manage to read a book that earlier you didn't know existed. ?

Book, not web site.

I did know about it but as mentioned no signs of several things that I feel should be in it – calculations and etc.

Book no, web yes. It seems to be available directly for download from some model engineering club sites.

There is a book, old, kicking around on actual model boiler design but my vague recollection is that it's a bit vague on some areas of the strength needed in some places on the boiler.

Looks like Oz may have done it properly. That's some index Jason and I assume infinitely preferable to discussing a design with some one or the other. Also when materials are being bought suppliers should be able to provide proof of what it actually is. Copper, annealed or what ever.

John

–

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Posted by Brian Hutchings on 29/12/2016 16:50:36:

Will CE marking be of much interest after Brexit and will something else replace it?

Can anyone remember what happened before the EU got involved?

Brian

In the 19th century there were no standards, and it was perfectly legal in the UK to dilute milk with dirty water and give babies typhoid.

Unless the marking is a fake, CE is good for the consumer. It reassures us that the goods we're buying meet minimum legal standards. A TV without a CE mark is a 'wrong-un' and the seller is legally at fault.

CE is pretty much essential if you manufacture and want to sell goods abroad. British products cannot be sold in the EU without a CE mark, and many non-EU countries also require it.

Replacing CE with a home grown equivalent would be expensive. You would need an equivalent set of National Standards, conformance testing, and a raft of new enabling legislation.

No-one knows what the long term effects of Brexit will be. I suspect CE marking is one of the things that won't change.

[MuzzerParticipant @muzzer]

"Can anyone remember what happened before the EU got involved?"

Yes, it was a bloody nightmare because you had to certify goods for every country you wanted to sell them in. Many of the stds were becoming harmonised anyway but the actual testing and certification had to be done by the official approvals body for each country. Time consuming and expensive.

There aren't many products that won't want to be offered to the EU, given that it is on our doorstep and accounts for the vast majority of our exports. If the UK goes its own way, I expect we will simply have to get CE AND BS or whatever we decide to call it. Twice the work. Nice one.

[Steve WithnellParticipant @stevewithnell34426]

Well stuff used to be marked with BSxxxx or a kitemark. The issue that BS were sometimes tougher requirement to achieve than CE requirements is worth remembering and that most people can't distinguish between CE and C E (China Export) is another…

Steve

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

Observation on CE marks.

How can you 'attach the mark to it anyway to show it complies with the standard' if there is no standard (e.g. small boilers)?

Neil

[David Standing 1Participant @davidstanding1]

Posted by Neil Wyatt on 29/12/2016 21:29:17:

Observation on CE marks.

How can you 'attach the mark to it anyway to show it complies with the standard' if there is no standard (e.g. small boilers)?

Neil

Neil

Perhaps what it needs is a 'CE exempt' sticker .

[Barnaby WildeParticipant @barnabywilde70941]

I'm involved in too many things to take a CE mark at face value. To me it means nothing.

Whatever it is that's supposed to be behind it . . . it carries no weight whatsoever with me, simply because it is sooo easily forged.

It's hard to explain to anyone who does not abide by the 3x golden rules of buying . . . The 3 P's.

Price. Product. People. (not in any order of importance)

Would you buy any old steam boiler off eBay simply because it has a CE mark? Would you buy any old steam boiler off of AliExpress because it too has a CE mark?

Would you buy any old boiler off a 1/8th page advert in the glossy backpages of a well respected ME magazine ?

Some folk would & some folk do, which is why it happens. There is lots n lots of money to made & to some folk . . . £money is all that matters !

Neither eBay, AliExpress or the well respected glossy magazine could GAFF if it blew up & scarred your grandchilds face for life on the first steaming. They are simply just a link in the £money making chain.

I don't know who I would buy a steam boiler off if I needed one, I don't actually know much about steam boilers in general . . . but I do know how I'd go about making sure it was VFM if I ever needed to.

[richardandtracyParticipant @richardandtracy]

The pressure vessel regulations are a nightmare. In 2002 I spent 3 months reading all regulations relating to pressure vessels so I could design a box for air transport of a small spacecraft with numerous hazardous materials in small quantities. We put it in a pressure vessel designed to take everything going wrong at the same time.

The regs were as nightmare. The UK regs, implementing the EU regs had a crucial 'not' inserted by our glorious Whitehall twits, making the UK regs the inverse of the EU regs and thereby also unsafe. As it was also unfired, I had to design to BS 5700, and that (at the time) was a technical nightmare. Working from the beginning I found I got referenced to other paragraphs to 7 levels deep, and to the same requirements on 17 separate occasions. During the project I found we had to comply with 70 regulations, directives or acts of parliament, and in the 2 year life of the project 20 were unpdated, 3 were updated twice. Any book would be out of date before the first copy was published.

Regards

Richard

[John Stevenson 1Participant @johnstevenson1]

Posted by richardandtracy on 29/12/2016 21:54:59:

The pressure vessel regulations are a nightmare. In 2002 I spent 3 months reading all regulations relating to pressure vessels so I could design a box for air transport of a small spacecraft with numerous hazardous materials in small quantities.

Richard

Couldn't you have just stuck it on a bus ?

[richardandtracyParticipant @richardandtracy]

With the thing worth £50 million+, not really.

Regards

Richard

[David Standing 1Participant @davidstanding1]

Posted by richardandtracy on 29/12/2016 22:21:04:

With the thing worth £50 million+, not really.

Regards

Richard

It was a spacecraft. Couldn't you have just fired it to its destination – into a low earth orbit, then drop it out of orbit on to where it needed to be? .

(Apologies Richard, I sense a competition starting here……).

[Nick HulmeParticipant @nickhulme30114]

Posted by David Jupp on 29/12/2016 16:46:04:

Posted by Ajohnw on 29/12/2016 13:13:49:

I'd like to see some proof that things that don't need to have a ce mark shouldn't have one.

See this page – down near the bottom under IMPORTANT NOTE **LINK**

To save the bother of following the link this is the paragraph in question – 

IMPORTANT NOTE:

Not all products must have CE marking. It is compulsory only for most of the products covered by the New Approach Directives. It is forbidden to affix CE marking to other products. 

Great, another non-answer! I'll have a bash then, here's an actual answer –

The CE marking is NOT required for the following products:

• Chemicals
• Pharmaceuticals
• Cosmetics
• Foodstuffs

So the things we must not mark are firmly Off Topic and pretty much irrelevant to this and any other On Topic discussion 😀

 

– Nick

Edited By Nick Hulme on 29/12/2016 22:30:33

[David JuppParticipant @davidjupp51506]

Posted by Neil Wyatt on 29/12/2016 21:29:17:

Observation on CE marks.

How can you 'attach the mark to it anyway to show it complies with the standard' if there is no standard (e.g. small boilers)?

Neil

Neil – the CE mark means it complies with the Directive(s) – it does not mean anything about standards. Standards (especially 'harmonised' ones) are one means that may be used to demonstrate compliance – but not the only one.

If by 'small boilers' you mean under 2 litres capacity, these are categorised as SEP under the PED and must not be CE marked.

[John Stevenson 1Participant @johnstevenson1]

Well we are into 5 pages now so this has got to be one of Fizzy's better hand grenade posts.

Pull pin, count 5 and stand back laughing.

[Speedy Builder5Participant @speedybuilder5]

Richard, sounds like it would have been cheaper to buy an aeroplane and just put it in it.

[not done it yetParticipant @notdoneityet]

I rather agree with JS. Asking the vendor, rather than posting on a forum, would have been a far better course of action. Only post (as a potential warning) if the response is decidely dodgy or evasive. But some don't think that way.

[Nick HulmeParticipant @nickhulme30114]

Posted by David Jupp on 30/12/2016 08:30:06:

Neil – the CE mark means it complies with the Directive(s) – it does not mean anything about standards. Standards (especially 'harmonised' ones) are one means that may be used to demonstrate compliance – but not the only one.

If by 'small boilers' you mean under 2 litres capacity, these are categorised as SEP under the PED and must not be CE marked.

SEP is used in the directives and supporting documentation as an abbreviation for "Sound Engineering Practice", this applies to low risk vessels where application of SEP by the manufacturer is seen as adequate, this only prevents CE marking under the Pressure Equipment Directive.

This does not however preclude the equipment in question being CE marked under another directive, pressure equipment bearing relatively low risk is permitted to be CE marked under the Machinery Directive. 

Other options might include that any structural weld can be CE marked, it goes on………….

Edited By Nick Hulme on 30/12/2016 11:02:21

[nigel jones 5Participant @nigeljones5]

Mr Stevenson, no one is laughing, least of all me. This thread had opened up another interesting topic and by virtue of it reaching five pages is something which clearly interests others, who I suspect are not laughing either! Do others see this as a 'hand grenade post'? I will be quite happy to cease input and also cease designing boilers for members for free if it helps?

[Nick HulmeParticipant @nickhulme30114]

I don't think the interesting discussion was certain to ensue from the initial invite to critique the products you haven't seen in person from a seller you haven't had any communication with, that could reasonably be described as above

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Posted by fizzy on 30/12/2016 11:34:30:

…

Do others see this as a 'hand grenade post'? I

…

I don't.

The forum does have a love it / hate it issue though. I rather like the way posts usually ramble off topic even though the deviations can be extraordinary. I think diversity makes the forum more entertaining.

I can easily understand why others dislike the forums thoroughly undisciplined approach to answering technical questions, and the occasional intrusion of ill-judged opinion.

Keeps me amused!

Cheers,

Dave

[MWParticipant @mw27036]

It's funny how easily noticed it is that the topic of conversation moves around, yet it shouldn't surprise anybody, this is what it naturally does.

Where's the incentive to keep a thread or even the community for that matter going on if every time you post or a thread starts getting quite long, it's immediately laughed at for…simply being there? Am I on a forum after all? that is generally what is supposed to happen.

If nobody's talking on here, and as I have established, talking tends to move around, it's not a book, it's a conversation, then what is the proposal for a forum?

And what is the implication of demanding that every single post follows it's context to the letter? That we aren't fallible people, and are simply to serve the upholding of a robotic type Wikipedia entry system?

I dislike people who only want to know me for what I know, i'm sure a lot of others would feel the same.

Michael W

Edited By Michael-w on 30/12/2016 12:42:48

[Anonymous]

Posted by fizzy on 30/12/2016 11:34:30:

Do others see this as a 'hand grenade post'?

Yes.

Andrew

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

Well here's another interesting snippet. – CE marks are no required for one offs.

So anyone can make and supply a single boiler without a CE mark, as long as they don't make and sell that design again.

Neil

[AjohnwParticipant @ajohnw51620]

I don't think it's a laughing matter Fizzy but on the other hand I don't think this thread will sort it out.

Nick has thrown some interesting light on CE marks. I am sure I have seen comments that in some cases these small boilers must be CE marked. These comments may or may not be correct.

That really sums it up. Also such comments as competent persons, sound engineering practice and other garbage like that. It needs all setting down more clearly. A problem though. In the end the quality of the item will depend on the maker. Go too far and few people will be able to make them because most wont have the qualifications that they would need. Things like materials, good practice and sums for the design side of things plus some no no's that might crop up could be tied down.

A lot of work. Probably why it hasn't been done and as some one mentioned earlier going through the legislated aspects is hard work and they may change periodically. When I look at them I always wonder why there isn't a decision tree to help point to the right parts. Legalised requirements are usually always a pain to go through. Legal speak always tends to finish up like that what ever field it covers.

There is nothing to stop some one from building a boiler for their own use. Some additional information might make that aspect a bit safer. It's the sort of thing I might do at some point which is why I have looked around at the subject. I reckon I can cope via over design anyway based around things that I can easily get rather than a kit.

John

–

[MWParticipant @mw27036]

Posted by Neil Wyatt on 30/12/2016 12:52:44:

Well here's another interesting snippet. – CE marks are no required for one offs.

So anyone can make and supply a single boiler without a CE mark, as long as they don't make and sell that design again.

Neil

Exactly what i'd expect, it isn't there to police or deny people the freedom to make their own.

Michael W

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