Surface Plate & Height Gauge recommendations

[Lee Jones 6Participant @leejones6]

[Lee Jones 6Participant @leejones6]

I really need to stop SWAGing/eyeing things up!

The time has come to take this to the next level.

However, I am not a professional (obviously), nor a millionaire.

Would you lovely folk be kind enough to recommend some products?

Is there anything I need to be cautious of or look out specifically for when purchasing?

[not done it yetParticipant @notdoneityet]

OK, you are now measuring to less than 0.05mm? How precise do you wish to be? 0.01mm, 0.001mm or better?

It’s the Law of Diminishing Returns unless you really need the precision/accuracy.

[John HinkleyParticipant @johnhinkley26699]

Unless you're doing ultra-precisiopn wor and you already have a sizeable mill, I'd use the mill table as a perfectly acceptable surface plate and concentrat on the height gauge part of the equation. I have a digital height gauge from ARC (where else?) and it is quite adequate for my meagre needs.

Height gauge

John

[steamdaveParticipant @steamdave]

The pauper's surface plate:

Make a framed piece of plywood with a baize top and put on a piece of plate glass. For my 'every day' usage, I use the platen from a retired scanner. Good enough for the girls I go out with!

I also have a second one that I use with wet/dry for smoothing my Many surface irregularities.

Dave
The Emerald Isle

[HopperParticipant @hopper]

Yep. Old scanner glass platten and an old scriber block is all i ever need. I've long lusted after one of those digital height gauges but always get by without it.

Edited By Hopper on 31/05/2020 11:44:54

[Phil H1Participant @philh196021]

My main interest is steam engines and locomotives – so toolroom equipment doesn't appear to be necessary.

I have a granite chopping board from Wilkos (about A3 size) but I did splash out on a decent vernier height gauge. I use the small milling table to keep locomotive frames aligned.

[Former MemberParticipant @formermember32069]

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[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Posted by Lee Jones 6 on 31/05/2020 11:18:55:

I really need to stop SWAGing/eyeing things up!

The time has come to take this to the next level.

….

Is there anything I need to be cautious of …

 

Main thing to be cautious of is wasting money on tools you don't need! My 'surface plate' is a sheet of plate glass on ordinary kitchen worktop. Worktop is flat and strong enough to support it, and the glass is very flat because it's made with a float process. In practice I don't need a precision lump of granite or cast-iron. Full of enthusiasm I lashed out on a height gauge only to find I don't use it much.

Two reasons, I rarely take measurements off existing items to copy or repair them, and a milling machine with DRO can often be positioned accurately enough to eliminate the need for a height gauge. The mill's table substitutes for the surface plate, and the cutter can be positioned relative to edges or other reference points without messing with a height gauge.

As always much depends on on the type of work being done. Getting started I expected to spend ages blueing, marking up and centre-punching etc. It didn't turn out that way for me. A height gauge is jolly useful when needed, but here that's once in a Blue Moon. My home-made surface plate is rarely deployed, and my scribing block mostly gathers dust. They might be more useful if I worked with castings, but my stuff is fabricated.

In the duffer workshop, I've decided to not bother with a certificated 0.001mm micrometer, slip gauges and surface table. They're just not needed. Instead, spring calipers, steel rules, digital caliper, 0.01mm micrometer, DTI, try-square, parallels, angle gauges and V blocks do most of the work.

In a hobby it's perfectly OK to buy tools for pride of ownership or to enjoy learning them. But if money is short, better to prioritise utilitarian items! What's it for, and how often is it needed? Can the money be spent more fruitfully on anything else?

Though I always ask myself the question, I'm not strict about discouraging answers. Quite happy to waste the kids inheritance on pensioner fun!

Dave

Edited By SillyOldDuffer on 31/05/2020 12:31:17

[Former MemberParticipant @formermember32069]

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[larry phelan 1Participant @larryphelan1]

I was given a large piece of granite worktop when a friend fitted a new kitchen.

This thing is as big as a double sink and about 40mm thick.

Not tool room quality, but a lot better than my bench top [when I can see it }

[Former MemberParticipant @formermember32069]

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[Henry BrownParticipant @henrybrown95529]

I picked up a 24" x 18" cast surface table for £30 from ebay, when I arrived to pick it up the owner told me his son had made it as an apprentice when he worked for Rolls Royce. It has a few rust stains on but was reasonably flat when blued against an AA grade granite table.

For marking out I use a scribing block I made as an apprentice, like others I'm very tempted to get one of the 300mm height gauges from ARC Euro, I can't see me ever needing a 600mm high one and it would probably get knocked over, but have so far resisted but when they have a special % off day, well…

[Lee Jones 6Participant @leejones6]

Posted by No-one In Particular

What are you going to use it for?

I wish people would stop asking me that.

The truth is; I'm working backwards into this hobby. Unlike the majority, I'm not working against a requirement or a specification. I'm not into building models, nor refurbishing motor vehicles (motorbikes or cars) and the like.

I've always liked building and fixing things and fancied a foray into working a little with metal (mainly to get me away from the computer!), so I bought an angle grinder and welder. It was quite fun, so I bought a better (TIG) welder and a second angle grinder (and a chopsaw and a bandsaw etc – you know how it goes).

The next step for me was a milling machine, so I bought one. And what's a milling machine without a lathe, eh?

Now it turns out that I quite like building tools for the aforementioned machines, which leads us to where we are today. I'm in the process of building some toolholders for the lathe and a sine table for the milling machine. After watching some YouTube videos on sine tables, as you do, Stephan broke out the ${SUBJECT} items and put them to good use, soooo. I guess you can see where this is going.

[Lee Jones 6Participant @leejones6]

Posted by Barrie Lever on 31/05/2020 13:39:10:

Lee

I would add that decent second hand 0.001mm digital micrometers can be had for S/H £25.00 they can easily be calibrated against a 1" standard. Why not buy good gear at this price.

Surface plates are not so easy that is why granite is good, it does not move much !!

I have just bought an unbelievably good micrometer (£1000.00 new) for £40.00 and it makes the digital 0.001mm jobs look like a blunt instrument, like I said earlier if you dont open the door you don't know what is on the otherside, you might think you do but who knows?

Obviously this is exactly what I'm after.

I have set the usual eBay saved searches, but I'm not holding my breath.

[pgk pgkParticipant @pgkpgk17461]

I must admit I've resisted buying a surface plate and (when required) use the mill tbale. I can see me buying a secondhand surface plate and vanishing down the rabbit-hole of wondering how flat it really is and either hunting up semone to re-surace/certify it ot buying more stuff to try and check it with. You only need to look st some of Tom Lipton's Youtube vids to see how small a deviation can be measured and how much you really need a surface grinder and….

pgk

[Former MemberParticipant @formermember32069]

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[Former MemberParticipant @formermember32069]

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[Anonymous]

Posted by Lee Jones 6 on 31/05/2020 14:23:26:

Unlike the majority, I'm not working against a requirement or a specification.

The corollary of no specification is that it doesn't matter what you buy – anything will do.

I chose to buy the following, all from Ebay at a total cost of less than £150 including delivery of the 3ft x 2 ft surface plate from Nottingham to Cambridge for £40:

The vernier height gauge is dual scale and was made by Etalon and the surface plate is Crown Windley.

Andrew

[duncan webster 1Participant @duncanwebster1]

I've got a small surface plate, I might be able to find it. I use it very rarely. If I had £350 to spend I'd find something a lot more useful. If I'm machining something I work to the DRO, if it's a sawing/filing job then odd-legs/squares/rulers, or sometimes use the drill m/c table as a reference

[Former MemberParticipant @formermember32069]

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[IanTParticipant @iant]

I now have three 'surface' plates (four if you include a plate glass one). I'm not recommending that as a practice – but these things do seem to accumulate over time. I use them all to a greater or lesser degree and for different purposes.

My first plate was a casting from CES, which I machined before surface grinding at college many years ago. It is about 10" x 8" (I think) and is used for general marking out. I have several vernier height gauges but very rarely use the large (24" ) one – preferring an old 9" vernier gauge (set in a base block) as it's much more convenient. How accurate this plate really is, I don't currently know (I plan to change that). I have a several small surface gauges that are also used for marking out in some instances.

I then have a large cast iron plate, about 18" x 22" which is too heavy to lift/move around easily and gets used as required in my large workshop – mostly for checking machined parts for accuracy (something I've become a bit more fussy about over time). This is done with a surface gauge and dial indicator. The plate was purchased from the college and has certainly had some use and must be worn to some degree. However, using an indicator on a very solid arm & base I cannot detect much (any) surface variation – although I suspect a professional would find some with the right equipment. It's good enough for my purposes though, offers a large surface area but is also very heavy, enough that I don't try to move it often. So it cannot be used in both workshops

Recently, I purchased a small granite surface plate from Rotagrip which wasn't too expensive (they have 20% off at the moment). Including shipping, the one I purchased (the smallest one) was just over £50, which I think is reasonable for a good quality surface plate for use in a hobby shop.

Rotagrip Granite Surface Plates

It's 12" x 9" – so my small cast iron plate can now be checked on it. This will be its main use (as my 'reference' plate) for scraping various small machine/tools parts that I'd like to be as flat as I can sensibly make them. I can pick it up (not for too long) as it is just on the borders of what I can comfortably manage to lift these days.

I've also had a piece of plate 1/2" glass about 12" x 24" set in a wooden base for many years and this was originally used for marking out but now is only really used for frame assembly work. I've never checked it for accuracy but it seems OK for what I need it for. It's kept in the inside (Winter) shop with the small cast iron plate.

I've very been fortunate to being able to accumulate these plates over the years at no great cost.

So – for marking out, a plate glass or small suface plate and Vernier gauge is fine. The size required will depend on the kind/size of work required but you can normally mark out larger parts on a smaller plate if their bottom edge is reasonaly flat & square. However, for checking parts for accuracy, a surface plate with surface gauge and DTI is required and here you really need space to be able to navigate around the part to check it fully/accurately – so a larger plate is a better bet.

Finally, how 'flat' your surface plate needs to be, obviously this depends what you are using it for. My granite plate will be used to check/compare the flatness of other parts and small tools – so I need it to be as good as possible without breaking the bank and also (in my case) to be able to move it without breaking my back (as it will be used in both workshops) – so weight was a key issue.

Surface plate size, weight (portability) and cost all need to be considered in relationship to the work it's going to be used with. However, if I was starting over – the granite one would be my obvious choice now.

Regards,

IanT

 

Edited By IanT on 31/05/2020 16:13:31

[jimmy bParticipant @jimmyb]

I used various granite work tops for years, 3 years ago I treated myself to a granite surface plate, 450mm x 450mm x 90mm.

I probably don't really need it, but I do like it!

Jim

[John BaronParticipant @johnbaron31275]

Hi Lee, Guys,

When I wanted a height gauge I made one ! I used a digital vernier, one of the cheap Aldi one that they sell for about £8. A few bits of scrap, a couple of salvaged bearings from an old hard drive. More than accurate enough. My surface plate is a piece of broken granite headstone.

Here is a picture, I did a build log for this a couple or so years ago.

That brass knob drives the M6 leadscrew. A nice fine 1 mm per turn which you can actually measure on the readout.

A close up view.

More pictures in my album.

[Howard LewisParticipant @howardlewis46836]

Not sure, how tall you want the Height Gauge, or how big the Surface Plate, nor how much you are prepared to spend..

HEIGHT GAUGE

If you are going to buy new, Arc Euro sell three Digital Height Gauges, a 150 mm one at £39.10, an 200 mm one at £79.31 and a 300 mm one at £94.03

If you buy secondhand, (possibly a bit late now, but when Industry changed over from Imperial to Metric, you could find Imperial ones in quite good condition fairly cheaply, because they were no longer wanted. My Height Gauge was condemned, because it had a 0.002" error over 18", which is acceptable for the work that I do! )

SURFACE PLATE

Some years ago, I made a surface plate for The WaterWorks Museum in Hereford., 18" x 24" x about 1.5" thick. A Kitchen Work Top / Grave Headstone maker, in Wisbech, cut me a piece of granite for £30.

You might be able to find an offcut cheaply, and make a base to suit.

If that seems expensive, an industrial, Mitutoyo 6' x 4' x 6" would have set you back over £3K at the time!

So, relatively, I got a bargain; for less than a third of the price an Industrial quality one.

I made up an angle iron frame, with a leveliing screw at each corner. The legs extended above the frame, to provide a loose location for the plate. On this frame, was placed a plywood support which was coated with a moist layer of plaster / Polyfiller, onto which the marble was placed. Being fluid, the filler could flow, so that the granite was uniformly supported, and not stressed.

Finally, a plywood cover was made, varnished and fitted.

An Industrial Surface Table, like the one mentioned above was ruined, by being leaned at an angle against a wall.

It sagged and bent!, Hence the need for a table to be stress free, as much as possible.

(No point in trying to work to greater accuracy than your measuring equipment, which includes the flatness of the Surface Table )

HTH

Howard

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