Solder..?

[Ron LadenParticipant @ronladen17547]

Would anyone know what type of solder this is…plumbers solder..? I found it in the back of a shed but have no idea where it came from or how it got there.

[Ron LadenParticipant @ronladen17547]

[Brian WoodParticipant @brianwood45127]

Hello Ron,

It is almost certainly high lead content plumber's solder that would have been useful in stick form like your example for making wiped joints. The enhanced lead content makes for a wider melting range so that is can be manipulated as a semi molten solid and then heated again to make it flow nicely for the final sealing and light 'polishing' with a moleskin to complete the joint.

For the application the broad melting range is crucial, a solder that freezes quickly [aka electrical joints] is of no use to forming joints of that kind. I doubt there are many plumbers left who could successfully make a joint of that sort these days, the need has melted away

Regards

Brian

[CirclipParticipant @circlip]

Wonder in the age of push fit joints how many "Plumbers" are capable of making a good "Yorkshire" or "Lancashire" joint?????

For the benefit of our readers and contravening thoughts of "Yorkshireness", WE put a solder ring INSIDE the fitting BEFORE supplying it to the trade, unlike those west of the Pennines.

Regards Ian.

[FMESParticipant @fmes]

Posted by Circlip on 23/08/2018 11:59:07:

Wonder in the age of push fit joints how many "Plumbers" are capable of making a good "Yorkshire" or "Lancashire" joint?????

For the benefit of our readers and contravening thoughts of "Yorkshireness", WE put a solder ring INSIDE the fitting BEFORE supplying it to the trade, unlike those west of the Pennines.

Regards Ian.

Probably why they're called 'Yorkshire' Fittings!

[Bob StevensonParticipant @bobstevenson13909]

Fry used to sell a lot of this at one time for 'prepping' car bodies before painting…..probably an epoxy used now.

 

'Fry metal' was very well known in several industries but I thought/think it is a bit big for plumbers, at least the sort who work on houses….

Edited By Bob Stevenson on 23/08/2018 12:17:05

[CirclipParticipant @circlip]

Must be reading the map upside down FMES?

Regards Ian.

[Ian HewsonParticipant @ianhewson99641]

Also used for wiping cable glands to pilcswa electrical cables and in the metal pot for soldering weak back ferrules to joint the cables.

Fitting and cable were tinned and then built up with layers of plumbers metal using a torch, metal , pat with moleskin, you had to get it in the right order or you knew about it😩.

Compression fittings used later for jointing

[David Standing 1Participant @davidstanding1]

Ron

Is there a number stamped on the back, like 63/37?

My guess is it was probably intended for flow soldering PCB's.

 

 

 

Edited By David Standing 1 on 23/08/2018 12:49:05

[Richard S2Participant @richards2]

Posted by Bob Stevenson on 23/08/2018 12:16:44:

'Fry metal' was very well known in several industries but I thought/think it is a bit big for plumbers, at least the sort who work on houses….

I'm inclined to agree. Sold in units of the pound weight, or fractions thereof. Other possibilities are for replenishing Tinning Baths or for Roofing where strong Flashing joints are required.

Ron's example bar here looks to me as well over 1 lb weight.

[roy entwistleParticipant @royentwistle24699]

It's plumbers solder. Frys also made metal for linotype and monotype machines for the printing industry

Roy

[mechman48Participant @mechman48]

… pat with moleskin, …

I'll bet the mole wasn't too happy about it…

George.

[HOWARDTParticipant @howardt]

Knew someone who worked at Enots, he said solder less fittings were created to save on the expense of having to have a fire marshal on hand when soldering in large buildings. I suppose an insurance thing for large companies.

[Ron LadenParticipant @ronladen17547]

David,

No number but a large capital "K" is stamped on the back.

Richard,

Yes it weighs more than a pound, not weighed it but it feels like a kilo at least.

Ron

[Ron LadenParticipant @ronladen17547]

I googled it and quite a few references came up, plumbers, car bodies, soldering machines, electrical joints plus others. I also found a bit of history on Fry,s, they produced non ferrous alloys, solders, anti friction material and "white brass". A question: what is White Brass, I,ve never heard of it.

Ron

[David Standing 1Participant @davidstanding1]

Posted by Ron Laden on 23/08/2018 14:06:50:

I googled it and quite a few references came up, plumbers, car bodies, soldering machines, electrical joints plus others. I also found a bit of history on Fry,s, they produced non ferrous alloys, solders, anti friction material and "white brass". A question: what is White Brass, I,ve never heard of it.

Ron

Ron

Brass with a high zinc content.

Further reading here:

**LINK**

[Don CoxParticipant @doncox80133]

As others have implied, this looks very much like the stuff that Post Office Telephones, and its successors, used for plumbing joints on paper cored lead sheathed telephone cables. When I was one of their apprentices in the '60s we had a demonstration of "pot and ladle plumbing." This consisted of a pot of molten lead with a gas burner and (unsurprisingly) a ladle which was used to transfer an amount of solder into a moleskin cloth liberally soaked with tallow and held in the palm of the jointer's hand. The molten solder was then shaped around the lead sheath and the joint cover to form a water tight seal. This seemed a very hairy process to watch and there was, thankfully, no mention us lads being allowed to try it. This method was only employed when dealing with very big cables, such as those found in the cable chambers of an exchange, the usual everyday practice in the field was to use" lamp and stick" plumbing, melting small amounts from a stick of solder, as shown in the photo above, catching it in a moleskin pad and as before forming it around the cable/joint combination. This skill, like plastering, welding etc is a hand skill and not for everyone, when BT first started shedding staff in the '90s they let too many jointers with those skills go and then had to open up courses to train a new generation of plumbers. Moleskin was a thick brown cloth which was folded in many layers, the tallow came in candle form and the solder came in stick of similar proportions to the photo above and was known as Solder 8B.

[shaun meakinParticipant @shaunmeakin78815]

Hi Ron, this is a soft solder, Frys were one of the leading manufacturers of these products back in the day. The letter 'K' means this is BS219 Grade K, aka 60/40 Sn/Pb.

The shape is known as a 'plumbers bar'.

Hope that helps,

Shaun.

[Clive Brown 1Participant @clivebrown1]

If it's 60/40 Sn/Pb it is general purpose, free flowing solder. I have a similar stick, going back decades.

Plumbers solder for wiped joints AFAIK, is (was!), 40/60 Sn/Pb This has a much wider "plastic" temperature range

[Roderick JenkinsParticipant @roderickjenkins93242]

Density should sort it out. 60/40 lead/tin has a density of 9.7 whereas 40/60 lead/tin has a density of 8.9. Weigh the solder in air then weigh it suspended in water. Density is the dry weight divided by the wet weight, all in grams. MEW 251 explains all.

HTH,

Rod

[john fletcher 1Participant @johnfletcher1]

To Don Cox and others who have wiped joints. Many years ago I too used to wipe joints on lead sheathed under ground cables. My question what did Don and other reader use to preventing molten metal from attaching itself to the cable sheath in places where it wasn't intend to go. We used Plumber Black in yellow tins (not now available) a drop of water was added and the mix was painted around the cable. For general soldering I now use Tippex which has the same effect on small objects. I notice how neat commercially made boiler are, when I silver solder it seems to flow everywhere, what am I doing wrong ? John

[duncan webster 1Participant @duncanwebster1]

Roderick,

not quite

dry weight is density * volume

weight of water displaced is (density of water) * volume

so wet weight is (weight in air) * volume – (density of water) * volume

go through the algebra and you get density = density of water / (1 – wet/dry)

as a worked example, if a lum of stuff had a dry weight of 17 gms and a wet weight of 15.5 gms, its density would be 1 gm/cc /(1-15.5/17) = 11.33 gm/cc

[Don CoxParticipant @doncox80133]

To answer John Fletcher, I was never a jointer, but, as is often the way of these things after working mostly as an exchange maintainer, I did finish up in charge of a cable maintenance group where quite a lot of lead plumbing was still needed. So far as I can recall (I left in 1996) the official way of keeping things neat was the use of plumber's black as John describes. In practice, I think careful use of a shave hook to scrape off only oxide in the target area before soldering limited where the solder travelled, bear in mind that almost no new lead cable was worked on by the time I arrived.

Keeping it tidy is something which I have often wondered about when soldering in recent times, only soft solder currently but I may yet take the plunge to silver solder up my Rob Roy boiler……..

[Roderick JenkinsParticipant @roderickjenkins93242]

Duncan,

You'll note that I said "suspended" in water. Being an empirical sort of guy I have just measured a cut off a rectangular steel bar and calculated the vol at 94.67 cc and weighed it at 737g. This gives a density of 7.79 which seems reasonably correct for mild steel. I then suspended the bar from a thread and lowered it into a bowl of water that was sat on a tared scale. The indicated weight was 95g which equates, to sufficient accuracy, to 95cc. I'll let you do the algebra, I can't remember how.

Cheers,

Rod

[duncan webster 1Participant @duncanwebster1]

Posted by Roderick Jenkins on 23/08/2018 23:36:51:

Duncan,

You'll note that I said "suspended" in water. Being an empirical sort of guy I have just measured a cut off a rectangular steel bar and calculated the vol at 94.67 cc and weighed it at 737g. This gives a density of 7.79 which seems reasonably correct for mild steel. I then suspended the bar from a thread and lowered it into a bowl of water that was sat on a tared scale. The indicated weight was 95g which equates, to sufficient accuracy, to 95cc. I'll let you do the algebra, I can't remember how.

Cheers,

Rod

That's not what you suggested in your first post ' weigh it suspended in water'. This to me at least means having the lump of lead/steel/whatever hanging from a balance, not what you've just described. Yes this second way measures the volume directly since 1cc of water weighs 1 gm. You need some conversion factors to do it in Imperial units

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