Soba Precision Drill Vice

[MadhatterParticipant @madhatter]

[MadhatterParticipant @madhatter]

Around a year ago I was here asking opinions regards precision drill vices and I received rather mixed reviews, from links to quality and to not to be a tool tart. Well, in the end I went with the advice of getting a new Soba precision and sadly, Hmmm.

Maybe because of Ocd I find it very difficult to see how this is precision, have a close look at the gallery of images, you shall see that it does not close in a parallel manner, I have even undone the allen keys and added a single sided blade down one side to try and even it up and it was ok for a short while and now it needs at least another adding. I have used it maybe two dozen times.

It holds items ok, it does the job, but when winding it up it is annoying to this occurring from something that is sold as precision.

**LINK**

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

I regret to say … I think you've summed that up rather well.

MichaelG.

.

Edit: for convenient reference, here's the original thread:

https://www.model-engineer.co.uk/forums/postings.asp?th=130093&p=1

Edited By Michael Gilligan on 10/06/2018 21:28:23

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Well I must say that neither of the drill vices that I have close up perfectly parallel until some load is applied to the part being held. Not caused me a problem in 35 years, infact a bit of leeway in the jaws can be handy as the drill vice often holds rough work that may not have totally parallel sides so the movement takes this up and you get full contact of the moving jaw against the workpiece.

J

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

I suppose the question begged is :

What constitutes 'precision' in a general purpose drill vice ?

… or, in this context, is the word just worthless advertising puff ?

MichaelG.

.

P.S. My J&S 'Nippy' is an excellent little drill vice … but I would never claim it to be 'precision'

Edited By Michael Gilligan on 10/06/2018 21:46:14

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

I suppose I would want the bottom of the opening and the rebates in the jaws to be a true to the bottom of the vice as possible and the minimum amount of jaw lift when tightened as I think this is where the precision is most needed but then again I don't use my drill vice for anything that needs precision.

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

I agree – that's not an impressive vice.

But before declaring the vice guilty, how much did you pay for it? I've got two worse than that but never had high expectations of them – they were both cheap. If it cost £100 you've been stung badly. If it was less than £40 you did well for the money. 'It holds items ok, it does the job…'

My preferred milling vice looks better but it cost nearly £200 and it's certainly not the most expensive by a long shot.

I'm afraid words like 'tough', 'precision', 'value', 'quality' and 'accurate' don't mean much without a specification. Just like 'pre-loved' might mean 'worn-out'!

Dave

[not done it yetParticipant @notdoneityet]

I think the ‘precision’ was referencing the angles of attachment to the drill press table.

Does it lay flat and parallel to the table? Does it hold workpieces perpendicular to the table when fixed in the other planes? Does it hold items correctly and firmly?

It is a drill press vise. I would not be expecting to need a soft wire, or other aids, to clamp a workpiece square with the fixed jaw – like needed for a milling vise (even the precision versions of those).

Does the jaw pivot easily by hand when close tho clamping? I would always expect an unguided jaw to always have one slightly looser side than the other. Look for its good points, is my advice – not the unnecessarily picky parts of its operation.

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

That style of vice doesn't have the long guides required to keep the moving jaw 'square', instead it will have a small amount of play. This makes it almost inevitable that the jaws will not close parallel with no impact on the vice's function.

The 'narrow guide principle' basically means that if that vice was made the short guides (compared to the distance between them) close enough to stop the jaw moving out of parallel, it would jam at the drop of a hat.

If you want a drill vice that does close parallel, you need one like I am testing at the moment – the kind with long guides, more like a milling vice. You can see the guide sections are about the same length as the distance between them. So far I would say this vice is better made than many cheaper vices sold as 'also suitable for light milling':

[Martin WParticipant @martinw]

The description on the packaging/box for this series of SOBA vice reads:- " Manufactured from graded cast iron these vices have a precision ground base………". There is no mention of jaw accuracy or anything else and at approx £48 probably isn't a bad buy. The jaws look as if they might be ground and have the ability to hold round stock both vertically and horizontally. I have seen a lot worse for the money, my door stop bears witness to that.

Martin

[HopperParticipant @hopper]

A vice of the type linked to in the original post is not generally meant to close in a perfectly parallel manner. The moveable jaw is usually a loose fit on the screw and in the guiding slots at the bottom so it can tilt from side to side a few degrees. This means the job is held firm against the fixed jaw, regardless of whether the job is perfectly square or not.

What you probably need to do is have a look at the ball joint — or whatever it has — on the end of the screw where it goes into the jaw and make sure it is loose fitting and allows the jaw to pivot. Then check where the moving jaw fits into the guiding slot on the bottom and make sure it has clearance there to allow it to pivot a few degrees. Sometimes its the plate that bolts onto the moving jaw underneath the vice body ways that needs adjusting too. Best to set that up so it is neat fit vertically to stop the moving jaw from lifting when tightened but so it allows a few degrees of movement when viewed from above so the moving jaw can self-align to the job.

You can see the principle taken to extreme on the Record drill vice below. The screw does not attach to the moving jaw, just bears on the half-round casting, allowing the jaw to cant to whatever angle is needed to match the job. BTW the pic was picked up from Gumtree UK so you could buy it for 15 quid and have a decent vice. (No connection to me etc other than having used one myself for years with complete satisfaction.)

But I think that if you loosen up the moving jaw on your present  vice so it can self-align when tightened, you will be ok.

 

Edited By Hopper on 11/06/2018 02:52:51

Edited By Hopper on 11/06/2018 02:59:05

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

Posted by Michael Gilligan on 10/06/2018 21:38:20:

I suppose the question begged is :

What constitutes 'precision' in a general purpose drill vice ?

In this case a 'precision ground base' which I read to mean that its is well finished and parallel top and bottom.

There is no need or requirement for the jaws to remain parallel on this type of vice.

[VicParticipant @vic]

I bought a couple of these some years ago (bottom picture) and they’ve been very good. I’ve even used them as a pair for light milling.

**LINK**

[HOWARDTParticipant @howardt]

A drill vice is not a precision device by any imagination, it is used freehand or clamped down below a drill spindle to hold parts for drilling. In the main the parts are marked out, maybe centre punched, to facilitate the starting point of the drill. How accurate the parts are depend on eyesight and a multitude of other factors. If one wants to perform a drilling operation with a reasonable degree of accuracy then one would retain the part within a setup that allowed it to be offered to the machine spindle with the accuracy required. This may be as simple as mounting the part on an angle plate and clocking it for vertical alignment. The way drill vices get thrown around, lying on any suitable horizontal surface when not in use negates the use of the word precision in its description. Keep a drill vice for a drill and use a precision vice when on a mill or jig borer.

[MadhatterParticipant @madhatter]

I was merely going by what the agents advertise the unit as, like Michael G said "

What constitutes 'precision' in a general purpose drill vice ?

… or, in this context, is the word just worthless advertising puff ?"

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Posted by Madhatter on 10/06/2018 19:22:43:

It holds items ok, it does the job,

So it does the important stuff with the precision you require

As several of us have said the ability of the jaw to pivot slightly is an advantage not a disadvantage and probably part of the design so where is the problem?

[not done it yetParticipant @notdoneityet]

Posted by Madhatter on 11/06/2018 16:48:05:

I was merely going by what the agents advertise the unit as, like Michael G said "

What constitutes 'precision' in a general purpose drill vice ?

… or, in this context, is the word just worthless advertising puff ?"

I think I covered that in my post above. That is where the ‘precision’ would be applicable to this device. Your OCD is concentrating on one aspect that is not important.

Further to my post above, consider the forces between the vise base, the movable jawand the the screw. The screw will attempt to always drive one side of the movable jaw upwards and the other downwards, altering the frictional forces between the jaws and bed. This is likely what is causing one end to advance more quickly than the other. Try loosening the jaws – you may well find the opposite action in that direction!

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Posted by Madhatter on 11/06/2018 16:48:05:

I was merely going by what the agents advertise the unit as, like Michael G said "

What constitutes 'precision' in a general purpose drill vice ?

… or, in this context, is the word just worthless advertising puff ?"

Given half an excuse I blather on endlessly about NOT taking words like 'precision' seriously UNLESS it's explained what it means AND you can measure it.

The view isn't prejudice, it comes from professional purchasing. At work when a chap asked me to buy him 'a quality do-dah', he was told to think again. Not because he didn't deserve a do-dah, but because he failed to justify what he needs in the way of 'quality'. I insisted on knowing exactly what was needed, why it was needed,  how long it was needed, and what the cost-benefit was. No way would he be rewarded for laziness, or wanting a tool conferring bragging rights, or wanting to waste money on an expensive tool that only got used once. Over-specifying is a grievous sin because it wastes money better spent elsewhere.

Far more useful to define what you mean by 'Value for Money' and 'Fitness for Purpose'. In this case, when buying the vice, you assumed the jaws remain parallel because the word 'precision' was mentioned. Actually, precision in a drill vice probably refers to the flatness of the working faces, not to jaw parallelism. If the latter matters, you need a different type of vice.

Defining 'Value for Money' and 'Fitness for Purpose' doesn't mean 'buy cheap'. Quite the opposite. Like as not proper analysis will tell you to buy the very best you can afford. Hobbyists are a little different because they pay their own bills. My budget and requirements mostly point me at inexpensive tooling. Your budget and requirements might well be the complete opposite. We're both right! I even respect 'Tool Tarts' because to me they're just another facet of an interesting hobby: if someone enjoys buying expensive brand-name gear and polishing it, well done!

Apologies if I sound unsympathetic, it's just my pedantic Asperger's streak likes engineering text to be precise with precision, quality, and other blurred words. It's very sad because I often fail to be clear myself…

Dave

Edited By SillyOldDuffer on 11/06/2018 17:58:37

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

It's not fair to discuss precision in advertising without precision in reading the product listing.

If the ground surfaces are parallel within sensible limits then it's a fair claim.

• In the case of a drill vice what matters is that the surface the jaw slides on and the one the keep plate beneath slide below are ground well enough that the keep plate can be set close enough to prevent unacceptable jaw lift when both open and closed without getting too stiff at any point.

Cheap drill vices often fail on this point.

• Also the flat base of the vice shoudl be parallel with the surface the jaw slides on, as this means work sat in the vice will be aligned with the drill table.

Failures of this type are rarer.

I would say it is legitimate to say a drill vice has a precision ground base if it meets these criteria.

If jaw parallelism is important to you, the ones I linked above will give you it, but for about three times the price for the same jaw width (also you need robust drill press as that are MUCH heavier).

Neil

[Clive FosterParticipant @clivefoster55965]

Resolutely unconvinced by the argument that some twist or float of the jaws is desirable in drill vices to better hold rough or non parallel stock. Sounds like an ex-post-facto argument that may be valid for special cases stretched into ridiculous generality. Seen enough things spat out of vices to leave the room if someone decides to use that Record horror pictured by Hopper above. Actually something like that can be made half decent but the price performance ratio doesn't really add up for a good one.

To me price performance ratio has become the big issue with the affordable import offerings. Seriously sloppy manufacture to meet unrealistic ex-factory price targets in the classic "bad money drives out good" cycle when a few more Renminbi spent in the factory would allow a much better product to be made. As consumers we always forget how low ex-factory prices are. Mail order really doesn't help here as its impossible to see what you are getting and you don't have the benefit of direct comparison. Flip side of affordable prices because mail order with the modern delivery chain means local shop overheads and shop supply logistics don't have to be paid for. Back in the the day vices like Hoppers Record were a less costly, but in real terms still very expensive, option from the local engineering supplies shop. Ideally you wanted a "Nippy" or better but in practice even the Record was beans on toast for a month or two to save up! Took me around 6 months to save for my Nippy. Even at closing down sale price.

From an engineering perspective the way conventional vices are made has never seemed quite right to me. I don't believe the Kurt Angle Loc (and copies) claims. The Chick layout with external racks both sides pulling from slightly in front of the moving jaw seems a much more mechanically correct way of combining anti-lift with parallel jaw movement constraint. Got some sketches of a Model Engineer / Home Show construction friendly version in the back of the envelope pile. Maybe I'll have a go as a winter project. First impressions are that an adequate quality version for the ordinary guy shouldn't be silly expensive. Real Chick being for high end CNC market with corresponding price and accuracy.

Clive.

[Mike PooleParticipant @mikepoole82104]

I think the fixed jaw of a vice is the important feature, if the fixed jaw is square to the base and the top is parallel to the base then there are plenty of well known strategies to make sure the work is clamped true to these faces. If a jaw is moveable then it is near certain that it will not be true. As long as you make sure your work is clamped to a reliable reference you should not have any surprises. One of the problems with a lightweight vice is that when tightened it will distort. A quality vice should retain its reference faces even when fully tightened. The nature of much hobby equipment is that it is lightweight compared to industrial equipment. Clamping directly to the table should be done thoughtfully as even what appears to be a solid lump of cast iron can be distorted without too much effort.

Mike

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