small mill for camera building

[john gunnParticipant @johngunn27825]

Hi everyone,

as the title says I'm thinking about buying a small milling machine to use for my hobby of camera building. The work is almost exclusively in aluminum (with a small amount in plastic materials). No huge parts so far the biggest piece I've needed to make was from a sheet of 3mm aluminum approx 250mm x 125mm and just involved cutting out a letter box hole in the plate approx 170mm x 60mm. So far i've got away with using a jig saw and file for these items but I'd like to be able to do these jobs faster and more acurately.

I've read a lot of posts about buying a bigger mill than you need but I don't think I need a Bridgeport or similiar, could someone give me an idea of what size mill would be suitable and perhaps some makes and models that I could check out

many thanks in advance

[john gunnParticipant @johngunn27825]

[Ed DuffnerParticipant @edduffner79357]

Hi John,

I have a Warco WM-16 milling machine and I'd think something around this size or even slightly smaller would be ok for camera parts. Of a similar size, I believe, is the SIEG SX3. If I were in the market for a new machine I'd get R8 tooling rather than the Morse taper I have now.

I've also thought about making some camera and telescope parts on the mill and my small lathe. One thing I wish I had integrated into the mill is CNC for intricate machining e.g. a Nikon mount, which could be machined manually but would be so much easier with CNC and easily repeatable.

Ed.

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

I would have thought something much smaller than an X3 what about a KX1 cnc tabletop mill?

Neil

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

A very interesting hobby, John … Can you please tell me more ?

Do you build 'Field Cameras', 'MonoRails', or what ?

Based on the dimensions that you mention … May I recommend that you look at the BCA 'jig mill' [preferably the Mk. III.version] … Although old, this is a fine and very versatile machine.

I wouldn't like to be without mine.

… Check Tenga Engineering for good examples.

MichaelG.

Edited By Michael Gilligan on 02/07/2016 19:03:10

Edited By Michael Gilligan on 02/07/2016 19:06:30

[Enough!Participant @enough]

Just to buck the trend: if 250 x 125 mm is representative of what you need to work on and it involves any kind of machining pattern over the whole length or width, then you need a mill with at least that much table travel in each axis. That in itself will pretty much size the mill.

It's true you can get away with a smaller travel by sliding the part along, against guides, between cuts but it depends a bit on the accuracy you need and is a nuisance at best. You may also find that the hand-wheels interfere with sliding the part very far if you don't raise it from the table. If you only occasionally machine parts this size you may be able to live with it (or you may wish you'd got something bigger )

Been there, done that.

[VicParticipant @vic]

Once you've worked out the working envelope required it's a good idea to actually go and look at the machine at a dealer (or a friendly local hobbyist) if at all possible.

[Martin NewboldParticipant @martinnewbold]

Hast anyone tried buying one of these compound sldes for a pilar drill with a motor and pulley system overhead. Was it worth the money buying this diid it mill ok ?

Cheers

Martin

[Clive FosterParticipant @clivefoster55965]

With smaller mills workholding arrangments can take up a disproportionate amount of space making the actual working envelope much smaller than you might expect. Vices, indexers and the like can be real space hogs. In general bench top mills cannot cover the whole of the table Y axis dimension, often its barely 2/3 rds sometimes even less. This can make it difficult to deal with larger parts even though the axis travels seem ample.

The BCA suggested by Michael is an odd duck. Depending on the job I found mine to be either a wonderful device or complete pain in the butt with precious little in between! I don't miss it now I have a Bridgeport but I first replaced it with a Chester Lux style machine, a bit bigger than a X3, and was frequently surprised by how little practical extra capacity the considerably larger machine actually ahd on certain jobs. Partly due to its permanently mounted rotary table the BCA is very space efficient in terms of the X-Y dimesnions it can handle. Vertical (Z) axis travel is limited and it only takes small cutters. I used a square grid of tapped holes plate as the primary workolding surface on mine as being much moreversatile than the rotary table Tee slots.

Clive.

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

I honestly think that the advice here is pushing John towards a much bigger machine than he needs.

The table of an X1 mill is 400 x 145mm, plenty big enough for the plate he describes allowing a three inches for clamping at each end, which is ample. the 330 x 145 travel is enough to machine that plate all over, not just knock out a hole in it.

There is also an off-the-shelf CNC version which though not cheap, would be ideal for the sort of materials described.

Neil

[MWParticipant @mw27036]

Yeah i have a WM16 and its just over 100kg, so it's bigger than it may seem in the picture, the table is over a metre long. And if all your considering is machining aluminium a much smaller machine would do the trick. I'd defy anyone to move one of those by themselves, even if you perform the local strongman act, it's the "top heavy" aspect of it that makes it so hard. 

You buy the magazine right? Well have a look at the work produced by Mike Cox, He's made quite a few contraptions out of (mild) steel using the X1 mill and a similarly sized lathe. I can't see any reason why you should avoid morse taper tooling either.

If you want to drill large holes into focal lens blanks or whatever-camera-doo-hicky then saving the money you would spend on wm16 you could get a dedicated drill press as well as a SIEG mill,  i personally didn't get on with using the mill as a drilling machine, not so much the ability but the chopping and changing between setups. 

I think you might find a recurring theme with machine tools that it isn't so much what you have but good practice that counts.

Just look at some of the machines made before 1850, at that point in history much of the work we do on a mill was done all by hand.

Michael W

 

Edited By Michael Walters on 03/07/2016 05:04:39

[John Stevenson 1Participant @johnstevenson1]

Without going on Arc's site to check sizes I think that ARC's SX2 has the same table as the X1 but it has the 500w brushless motor which is a far better animal to the DC motors fitted on the smaller range.

I'm pretty sure the X2 as sold by Machine Mart / Clarke and some others has the older short table ?

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by Ed Duffner on 02/07/2016 18:08:55:

One thing I wish I had integrated into the mill is CNC for intricate machining e.g. a Nikon mount, which could be machined manually but would be so much easier with CNC and easily repeatable.

.

That's quite a leap from John's original example of a 170mm x 60mm letterbox cut-out.

**LINK**

… Perfectly valid, but quite a leap.

MichaelG.

.

I'm keen to hear what John is actually making …

Maybe a panoramic camera for 120 roll-film

[MWParticipant @mw27036]

Posted by John Stevenson on 03/07/2016 09:38:31:

Without going on Arc's site to check sizes I think that ARC's SX2 has the same table as the X1 but it has the 500w brushless motor which is a far better animal to the DC motors fitted on the smaller range.

I'm pretty sure the X2 as sold by Machine Mart / Clarke and some others has the older short table ?

I personally prefer AC induction motors for machining and i will freely admit i had the last straw with the WM16 DC motor and outfitted it with one myself. For light duty loads a DC motor should be adequate you would greatly increase it's lifespan by adding a fan.

Michael W

[john gunnParticipant @johngunn27825]

thank you everyone for such quick and informative replies. Most of the cameras I have built so far are fairly straight forward "point and shoot" affairs using either 5×4 film or 120 roll film. I've used large format lenses with focusing either by bellows or canabalised focusing helicoid from old broken medium format or 35mm lenses. I'd like to make my own helicoid focusing devices but they seem pretty involved for someone like myself with only limited lathe/milling experience. I looked at the BCA mills on the Tenga site and they look very good but I'm guessing they're not cheap and the ones listed all seem to be 3 phase.

The part I mentioned in my original thread was indeed for a 6×17 format panoramic camera using 120 roll film I think a 6×24 format camera could well be the next project, as I have a couple of lenses that will just about cover that format.

I have been looking on line bearing in mind the advice about table sizes and there range of movements and keeping in mind my budget (hopefully £1000 ish) and available space there seem to be some good mills available, are any of the makes better than others or do they all originate from the same few factories? Being down in in sunny Cornwall (or it would be if it stopped raining), as far as I know we dont have any local stockists of this type of equipment ( I think Axminster is probably the closest) I might end up making a purchase online based on the advice from yourselves and what information I can glean on line

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Thanks for the update, John

Just a note regarding my favoured BCA … The ones on Tenga's site represent the cream of the crop, and will probably be in the region of £4k, but they do appear at about £1k [and occasionally less].

When I bought mine [about 25 yrs ago, ex-College], I substituted a single phase motor … But these days, an Inverter should allow you to keep the three phase. … The motor is on a very simple fixing, and should present no problem whatever type you choose.

The BCA's most important features are:

1. The build quality
2. The built-in 8" Rotary Table

With that, I shall rest my case, and let others tell you what might be more suitable for your work.

MichaelG.

[Ian S CParticipant @iansc]

John, One important thing in choosing a mill is the height under the quill, you may need to use a rotary table, and if what you are machining is in a lathe chuck, there is not too much space even on the best of mills. Ian S C

[AjohnwParticipant @ajohnw51620]

I would have thought the X2 size as well but Neil has a point. I feel it's best to go for something a bit bigger than what seems to be needed at the time they are bought.

One word I would look for in the description is quiet. Some models use rather noisy gears. There may be some about that use plastic ones – pass but when that has been done on lathes they have been known to break.

I did have the X2 size some time ago. An earlier model. OK but it needs careful adjustment of the slides and the weight of the head makes that a bit tricky. It often is tricky on many millers including ones where the knee moves instead.

I've often looked at the ones on this page – but would be inclined to go even bigger than the X2

**LINK**

A very popular company for lathes. One thing I have liked on that page is the mention of tapered gib strips in place. All DC motors though sub £1000 except the 300kg belt drive one.

John

–

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

The reason I said X1 instead of X2 is that the OP specified a 'small' machine and suggested he might want off the shelf CNC and the X1 is probably the cheapest route to a machine, albeit well beyond a £1K budget.

Neil

[Enough!Participant @enough]

Posted by Neil Wyatt on 02/07/2016 23:53:07:

The table of an X1 mill is 400 x 145mm, plenty big enough for the plate he describes allowing a three inches for clamping at each end, which is ample. the 330 x 145 travel is enough to machine that plate all over, not just knock out a hole in it.

Exactly my point. It's the travel vs the maximum anticipated part size that's critical. If you have that you will almost certainly have enough table length/width on top of that for clamping. It sizes itself.

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