Small electric motor help

[Cornish JackParticipant @cornishjack]

G'day all.

Photos are of one of a number of motors which I have just re-discovered!! Unable to find any relevant info on the Web and would like to know what input would be correct and what connections should be used. Dimensions are approx. 1" diam and 2.5" long.

Any help much appreciated.

Rgds

Bill

[Cornish JackParticipant @cornishjack]

[Les Jones 1Participant @lesjones1]

Hi Bill,
If you have had no luck searching for the model number on Siemens website and on the web in general then I think you will be very lucky to find anyone who is familiar with that type of motor. I think all you can do is to gain as much information as possible from the motor. First, it looks like a geared motor and you should be able to tell by the feel of turning the gear on the end. You may be able to tell if it is a permanent magnet motor by seeing if it attracts steel pins etc. (Some permanent magnet motors do not show much external field.) Another way is to see if it is harder to turn the output shaft when the terminals are shorted. The fact that it has three connections is unusual. Measuring the resistance between each pair of terminals (Three readings.) may give more clues. You could also see if there is any AC or DC voltage developed across the terminals when it is rotated. If you can dismantle one of them you would be able to see if it had brushes and what the armature looks like. (Is it wound, does it look like an AC motor armature, does it look like stepper armature ?) If it only had two terminals my guess would have been a permanent magnet motor designed for low voltage (Less than 24V)

Les.

[Sub MandrelParticipant @submandrel]

Seimes throws up several results for V224411 all in the article here

These suggest it is a brushed 220V/50Hz asynchronous motor with a number of variants and the brushes listed as parts.

One or two sources suggest it may be three-phase, which would explain the 1,2,3 terminals. It may be a very small high-voltage servomotor, rather than a stepper.

Don't just dive in and apply the mains though – check the resistance across the terminals is above, say, 80 ohms first.

Some people find these in printers, someone else is selling one as 'possibly a stepper motor'.

If its a stepper, you will probably be able to feel a sort of 'cogging' effect when you turn it.

You could check the ebay hits for V22411 but don't rely on ebayers to know what they have scavenged!

[Keith LongParticipant @keithlong89920]

Bill

Suggest you search on the other number as well 1BS1430-4TA plus the other nyumbers that are going round the side. Some suggestions from Polish site seem to be 15 volts but wther ac, dc or which pins – no idea.

At least they are out there and known about!

Keith

[Les Jones 1Participant @lesjones1]

Well found Neil,
I did not bother checking on the web as Bill said he had tried that. Another possiblility is that is a type of capacitor run motor where the start and run windings are identical. One lead goes to the common end of the windings and the other connects to one of the ends of the windings connected to the capacitor. if this wire is changed over to the end of the other winding the motor runs on the opposite direction. This makes the switching to reverse the motor very simple. (These motors do not have brushes.)

Les.

[Cornish JackParticipant @cornishjack]

Many thanks, gentlemen.

I get the feeling at times that my particular Google/Yahoo/ whatever search engine is/are different to everybody else's!! I am embarrassed to find that my searches reveal zilch when others strike gold! Anyway thank you all and there are some useful tips there to pursue. I'll report back when complete. I actually have a tray of 50 of these things (cannot now remember why!!) so if they are useful it will be worth the investigation

Rgds

Bill

[Keith LongParticipant @keithlong89920]

Bill

If you've got a tray of 50 of them you could well find that you've struck gold (well a small pot) in another sense!

Depending on what they are I wouldn't be at all surprised if some folks here would offer beer tokens for some of them.

Keith

Edited By Keith Long on 12/03/2013 14:14:48

[Sub MandrelParticipant @submandrel]

It's a curious stepper motor if it only has three terminals, unless that's a fourth on the front.

A complete guess think it's a small servo motor rather than a stepper, possibly brushless for three-phase control or perhsps it's for two phase AC. The terminal on the gearbox being a position encoder of some kind. If so it is probably quite an expensive bit of kit.

It probably is lower than mains voltage.

Neil

[Les Jones 1Participant @lesjones1]

Hi Neil,
I think the pin at the front is some kind of pivot as it seems to have a groove at the end for a circlip. I too have not heard of steppers with only three wires but I think they may exist. I could not find any reference to them with Google. (Only a quick search.) I think your three phase could be correct. It could also be a brushless DC motor requiring a controller. If the resistance between each of the three pairs of terminals is the same then it would be evidence for this theory. This is why I suggested taking resistance measurements.

Les.

[Kris LehaneParticipant @krislehane86422]

Bill.

I am curious, as I have just re-built an AC motor from Hoover, that has the same Three terminals, on opening it up, Marked A, B, and C, to drive my Myford ML7. I can't see a capacitor bolted to the outside, but there may be an internal One. It may be a Two-phase motor. I am familiar with most stepper motors. These usually have 4 wires, Each pair (Meter them) usually control 2 separate coils. Therefore, it's not a stepper motor. There maybe, probably, however, 2 coils, within said motor. One of the Three terminals is common for both coil A and coil B, The other Two terminals feed in to either coil A or coil B from the other end of the winding. To make it go in a certain direction, One will lag behind the other, via capacitor, or larger winding, to make it go in a certain direction. Take it apart and I am willing to bet you will find 4 terminals! Bit like riding a bike and which pedal do you push first…I t could be a delta winding Three-phase, but probably not at that size. Don't trust me, investigate further. K.

[Sub MandrelParticipant @submandrel]

> It could also be a brushless DC motor requiring a controller.

Same difference – the controllers synthesise a 3-phase signal!

Neil

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

You may get some more results by searching for the other number on the "plate" 1BS1430-4TA

Someone on Allegro.pl is advertising some of these, and shows them as 15V

MichaelG.

 

Edited By Michael Gilligan on 13/03/2013 10:50:55

Edited By Michael Gilligan on 13/03/2013 10:53:34

[Cornish JackParticipant @cornishjack]

Again, many thanks for all the helpful suggestions – have to admit that some of the more esoteric advice joins reactive loads as 'knowledge gained'!!

This, obviously, item in question opened up . There are 12 separating pieces and rotation of the shaft is 'lumpy' – seems to correspond to the number of separations (haven't counted them!)

Resistance measurements (on an AVO digital meter) are :

1-2 – 6.76 ohms

1-3 – 6.80 ohms

2-3 – 6.79 ohms

Will follow up some more of the above advice and report back

Rgds

Bill

PS – just had a look at the allegro site and that is the same item. Just a quick brush up on my Polish (aaargh! – AWFUL pun in there somewhere!) and Robert is Dad's brother

Rgds

B

Edited By Cornish Jack on 13/03/2013 11:19:16

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Looks nicely made … therefore must be worth investigating !

Incidentally, I think that V22411 is just an identifier for the Siemens company.

MichaelG.

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

From your measurements, it seems most likely to be a Delta-wound DC Brushless Motor

See this Wikipedia article

If so, you might get suitable controllers from the RC aircraft suppliers.

… I reckon you could have a "High Speed Drill" project in there somewhere.

MichaelG.

[Cornish JackParticipant @cornishjack]

Thank you Michael et al.

Still puzzling over these things but it would seem that brushless DC is correct. An even greater puzzle is how some of you have search facilities which produce results that don't come up for me!! It's embarrassing 'cos it appears that I'm too lazy to do a search and rely on you kind souls to do the work for me – AND IT AIN'T SO!! So, please, guys, what is the secret? Search engine, search syntax, insider knowledge … what??

Rgds and thanks

Bill

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Bill,

To paraphrase from Star Wars: "… use the Force …"

Things just start to feel right, when you're heading in the right direction.

One thing that often seems to work: Use the "images" search in Google [our visual pattern recognition is good] … this can quickly filter-out the red herrings.

As for your unit in particular: By searching on only V22411 you will find lots of references to other stuff made by Siemens … therefore it's probably a code to identify the manufacturer. … Log that fact for reference, then try some other number from the "plate" … et seq.

Happy hunting

MichaelG.

[BazyleParticipant @bazyle]

For future reference in worth knowing that aircraft often have 28v DC and 3 phase 400Hz (can't remember volts) and sometimes marine too. Ships may have a few more options available. These voltages might also bleed into equipent on tanks too. The 400 hz is used to make the transformers more efficient so small & light. 28v is from the battery of course.

[Sub MandrelParticipant @submandrel]

I still have to grumble about how a brushless motor can be DC. Even wikipedia says:"Brushless DC electric motor (BLDC motors, BL motors) also known as electronically commutated motors (ECMs, EC motors) are synchronous motors which are powered by a DC electric source via an integrated inverter/switching power supply, which produces an AC electric signal to drive the motor (AC, alternating current, does not imply a sinusoidal waveform but rather a bi-directional current with no restriction on waveform);"

I don't see how the Ac is generated from a DC source by an inverter makes them DC motors!

But it is obviously accepted terminology so I'll just crawl ff into the Pedants' Corner and mumble quietly to myself!

Neil

PS: that link I found for a seimens list has references to various motors including 'sychronmotor, assynchronmotor and some that translate as 'brush turned off'. I suspect it refers to the case size.

[jason udallParticipant @jasonudall57142]

Neil… I agree…

I think there is even a word for it…( don't remember at the mo. )

where "everyone knows" that frogs go RIBBET, horses hoves sound like coconuts , live centers that arn't…digital verniers…etc.

but DC BRUSHLESS. is the term you would need to search for to find that class of device..

the divide between .. dc brushless and certain types of non- pm stepper motors is blurry…

and with intregrated drives ( in box on side of motor) even more so……

regards Jason

 

Edited By jason udall on 15/03/2013 09:44:29

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by Stub Mandrel on 15/03/2013 09:23:38:

I still have to grumble about how a brushless motor can be DC. Even wikipedia says:"Brushless DC electric motor (BLDC motors, BL motors) also known as electronically commutated motors (ECMs, EC motors) are synchronous motors which are powered by a DC electric source via an integrated inverter/switching power supply, which produces an AC electric signal to drive the motor (AC, alternating current, does not imply a sinusoidal waveform but rather a bi-directional current with no restriction on waveform);"

I don't see how the Ac is generated from a DC source by an inverter makes them DC motors!

But it is obviously accepted terminology so I'll just crawl ff into the Pedants' Corner and mumble quietly to myself!

Neil

PS: that link I found for a seimens list has references to various motors including 'sychronmotor, assynchronmotor and some that translate as 'brush turned off'. I suspect it refers to the case size.

.

Neil

Just a rhetorical question, and entirely non-confrontational:

Is a "brushed" DC motor truly DC anyway ?

… and [if so] does it stop being a DC motor when you drive it with chopped DC from a PWM controller ?

MichaelG.

[Cornish JackParticipant @cornishjack]

Oh, Dear God … it's the wiggly amps v straight amps thing starting up again! I feel a severe attack of the vapours coming on … Nurse! … two more tablets and a brow-soothing hand, if you please!

Rgds

Bill

[Gordon WParticipant @gordonw]

All this (very interesting ) stuff reminds me of trying to explain to a mate of mine, the other night, the difference between dynamos and alternators. Along the lines of car dynamos start off AC and brushes make AC etc. What about a bike dynamo ? he said. Get another pint I said.

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Don't worry about it, Bill

Just find someone to supply a suitable Driver

Then design a neat little High Speed Drill for the Topslide [or whatever] … Write it up for MEW, and offer the motors for sale to Readers, at a realistic price.

Then sit back and relax with that Nurse.

MichaelG.

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