Single to 3 phase invertor and smart meters

[VicParticipant @vic]

Posted by V8Eng on 10/02/2019 10:16:54:

I have a similar meter system to the one Peter Shaw mentions.

The supply company emails me when they want a reading, I read the meters then log in on the company website and put the readings in.

We see no use for a Smart Meter because our house operates on the ‘switch off if not using’ basis anyway.

All that works a treat, pretty cost effective too I would imagine.

Edited By V8Eng on 10/02/2019 10:19:53

Yes, that’s how we operate as well. The only equipment switched on is because it needs to be.

[Pete WhiteParticipant @petewhite15172]

This might be a bit like when we conned into having "economy seven" for free to benefit from energy being produced at night. I few years ago i was looking at changing supplier and they questioned why I was on economy seven as I was not using enough night units to justify the charges THAT HAD CREPT IN. Soon came of that scam, but still wonder how much it had cost me over the years. I had given up night time activities, like baking cakes, night time washing, cutting the privet hedge, getting the wife up early to do the ironing, etc. lol

Who started all this whining anyway….lol

Pete

[J HancockParticipant @jhancock95746]

As I see it, the Smart Meter you see, is separate from the main meter, which is powered by the energy provider.

It ( the SM) must have a power supply from somewhere, is it from the provider or consumer side of the main meter ?

If the latter, 'you' are paying for it.

Or can you physically switch it off ( disconnect , not standby )?

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Rather reading the Daily Mail or guessing – this web-site contains a lot of information about what smart meters are for and how they work. It seems to be accurate and balanced.

The requirement to install Smart Meters comes from government. As smart meters don't strongly benefit either consumers or suppliers, I suggest the initiative is more to do with the needs of future energy management than a desire to polish the way we do things today.

Change in the way nations use energy is being forced upon us because:

• the science behind Climate Change is proving more likely to be right than wrong
• demand for energy is rising world-wide
• fossil fuels are starting to run out
• alternatives to fossil fuels aren't as simple or reliable

New challenges are on the horizon and Smart Meters might help. The ability to disconnect and reconnect customers on the fly would be useful in a crisis when demand exceeds supply. More positively, the meters allow households to sell power back to the grid, which would encourage more people to fit Solar Panels, and allow access to electricity stored in large numbers of electric cars as a buffer. The ability to alter the price of energy on the fly could be used to discourage customers from using power during periods of high demand and to encourage them to use it during periods of low demand. Like Economy Seven on Steroids!

One link opens a description of the elaborate computer security measures being taken to protect Smart Meters. They are by far the most sophisticated I have seen described in a public document. It makes the security applied (or not) by businesses to personal data look amateur. It's because of the high level of risk Smart Meters are exposed to. For example, a hacker might succeed in taking over the entire smart meter network. Being able to disconnect an entire country from gas and electricity makes the system an attractive target. And another risk is that the 'hacker' is a well-funded agency of an unfriendly government rather than a spotty schoolboy.

Interesting times ahead I think.

Dave

[John HaineParticipant @johnhaine32865]

The thing you see if the in-home display. This connects to the meter proper using, I believe, Zigbee RF. It is probably battery powered, but is unlikely to take much energy as it's basically a low power microprocessor, a Zigbee RF unit, and a display. You could always take the battery out or if it does use mains power just unplug it. According to Ovo Energy…and they indirectly confirm you can switch it off.

How much does it cost to run my IHD?

Your In-Home Display (IHD) is very power efficient. The average amount of power it uses when it’s switched on, including the plug-top power supply, is less than 0.5 watts. Over a year, this adds up to 4.38 kWh or 54p (based on a unit rate of 12.33p/kWh).

[John MCParticipant @johnmc39344]

I've recently been asked by my electricity supplier to consider having a smart meter fitted, initially i was put off by the guy at the other end of the phone being quite insistent that it would save me money! As we all know, it won't, its the consumer that can do that, with or without a smart meter.

For me it was an easy decision not to, the array of PV panels on the roof decided that. I could, possibly, affect the amount of money I get from "feed in", difficult to tie down exactly but it could cost me so no smart meter.

John

[derek hall 1Participant @derekhall1]

Wow, so many opinions on a smart meter!

This is why this forum is so good…..!

I have to say reading all of your comments I have come to the conclusion to convert the super 7 to 3 phase via an invertor but to call EON and cancel the smart meter!!!…..what was I thinking ?

Best regards to all of you

Del

[VicParticipant @vic]

It seems that fitting smart meters was not initially UK government policy but rather a European Union proposal.

As long ago as 2013 the Germans decided it was of no benefit to consumers.

**LINK**

[J HancockParticipant @jhancock95746]

Thank you John Haine, I will go with that, £0.54 /annum/ consumer

Multiply that by a few million consumers , yep , I could live on that !

[BertyParticipant @berty]

I didn't know you could get electricity for 12.33 p/kWh, I'm paying double that, but at least I'm 54p a year better off than John as I don't have a smart meter.

I have the same policy as Peter and Vic, it's only plugged in if I need to use it and nothing on 'standby'.

Berty

[Alistair Robertson 1Participant @alistairrobertson1]

Some years ago my father-in-law was in a house with economy 7 or white meter as it was called in Scotland. He used to get up at 5.30am to switch on the washing machine etc to get the advantage of the supposed cheap rate electricity. The bill was not very detailed in those days but we noticed that the economy units and the final bill did not add up so he questioned it. The company were not really prepared to discuss it until he insisted and he received a chart showing the costs of the supposed "economy" units.

The price changed several times during the so called "economy" period and he found he was being charged nearly twice the "day" rate for his early morning clothes washing!

The company refused to explain why the "economy" rates were so expensive other than to say that is how the meters were supplied and they couldn't he changed!

[Ian McVickersParticipant @ianmcvickers56553]

One of the problems with smart metres is that they don't all talk to each other. We had one fitted last year then switched supplier and now have to still go read them and email the reading to our current supplier.

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Posted by Alistair Robertson 1 on 10/02/2019 15:55:48:

Some years ago my father-in-law was in a house with economy 7 or white meter as it was called in Scotland. He used to get up at 5.30am to switch on the washing machine etc to get the advantage of the supposed cheap rate electricity. The bill was not very detailed in those days but we noticed that the economy units and the final bill did not add up so he questioned it. The company were not really prepared to discuss it until he insisted and he received a chart showing the costs of the supposed "economy" units.

The price changed several times during the so called "economy" period and he found he was being charged nearly twice the "day" rate for his early morning clothes washing!

The company refused to explain why the "economy" rates were so expensive other than to say that is how the meters were supplied and they couldn't he changed!

This is an example of when a Smart Meter would be an advantage. To use Economy 7 economically you had to understand its tariff structure, which changed over time, and use electricity strictly within the contract's terms and conditions. Not sticking to the small-print resulted in costly bills, and the system took no prisoners. A Smart Meter would have instantly told father-in-law how much his electricity was costing – no need for him to wait for a reading, mysterious calculations, and a surprising bill months later.

As I get older I crave simplicity in financial and and other matters. Sadly, it's not turning out that way. I'm surrounded by complexity, muddle and turkeys looking forward to Xmas!

Dave

[Phil WhitleyParticipant @philwhitley94135]

Posted by Gray on 09/02/2019 22:45:55:

All I can say to most of the above is what a load of bull. This is so typical of the misinformed scaremongering around smart meters.

A smart meter cannot 'tell' what type of load is on the metered circuit. The metering element of a smart meter is no different to that of a heritage meter. The 'smart' part is that it is capable of communicating your usage data back to the energy supplier. It maintains a record of your usage history and displays that on your 'in home display unit' so that you can track your usage and make changes in usage if you choose to.

Let's be realistic, the meter is connected to your incoming supply , it is monitoring the whole of your property BEFORE your consumer unit, so within that property there will be a mixture of resistive and inductive load.

As to changes in charges dependent on time of day, that would have to be declared in your T&C's for particular tariff.

Smart meters are smart for both the customer and the supplier. This is not the thin end of the 'Big brother' wedge

Using VFD's has no bearing on whether or not you have a smart meter, I have both and have no issues before or after the Smart installation.

I work in the energy supply sector and and very closely involved with the smart meter rollout so if anyone wants clarification please ask, I will give chapter and verse but be assured, smart meters are NOT a 'spy in the cab' , they are designed to assist everyone in monitoring and optimising their energy usage.

My information on smart meters sensing the difference between inductive and resistive load is taken direct from the pages of Electrical Review, which has been the voice of the Electrical industry for many years, in fact since Michael Faraday was its original editor (him being a bookbinder an all that) I doubt very much that the companies in the business of selling electricity would spend many millions developing a device that enabled their customers to use less of what they are selling, and also, if their only purpose is energy saving, why has the government not made them compulsory for every user? Why does the industry tell lies to convince people to have them fitted? Methinks sir, you protest too much!

[VicParticipant @vic]

Its quite interesting that although the majority of houses don’t have smart meters the UK has continued to reduce energy consumption for well over a decade:

**LINK**

Some more information about smart meters in the UK.

**LINK**

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Posted by John Haine on 09/02/2019 12:22:55:

I can't see any reason why the VFD should affect the Smart Meter in any way.

I think it might, but I suspect they're more likely to mess with an older motor based meter than a Smart Meter that samples voltage and current at high speed rather than counting turns resulting from current flowing. (Am I right in thinking spinning disk meters infer power from current over time and don't measure voltage at all, instead assuming all watts are at 240V nominal?)

When I was in short trousers the load put on the network by domestic users was almost entirely resistive. Unlike industry, households caused little error due to inductive, capacitive or complex loads, and there was no need to worry about complications.

VFD's I guess are still relatively uncommon in homes, but a major change is the arrival of large numbers of a close relative – switched mode power supplies. Between lighting and electronics the average home must have them well into double figures. These things are far from being a resistive load, particularly if they are poorly filtered, and I wonder what effect the harmonics and general mush might have on a meter?  My guess is the presence of harmonics would cause a spinning disk meter to read low.

Perhaps the effects average out and it doesn't matter. Does anyone know?

Dave

 

Edited By SillyOldDuffer on 10/02/2019 18:57:53

[John HaineParticipant @johnhaine32865]

Spinning disc meters did measure power – see here. When I was a student we built a crude charger for NiCads with a half-wave rectifier – interestingly when connected to the shilling in the slot meter in our flat, the disc went slowly backwards (as long as it was the only thing conencted). However they were obviously wise to this and there must have been a ratchet in the gear train because the dials did not wind back.

[alan-lloydParticipant @alan-lloyd]

I rest my case, we will see!

[John OlsenParticipant @johnolsen79199]

As John Haine has pointed out, the old spinning disk meters did consume power, some of which you pay for and some you don't. Basically you pay for the I^2R loss in the current coil but don't pay for the V^2/R loss in the voltage coil.

Those meters don't charge for the reactive part of the load current, at least ideally. This is fair since the reactive part does not convey any power to you, nor does it cost the power company the full cost of the equivalent power. Why they don't like it is that the reactive current does cost them the loss in all the conductors leading to your house. So for instance if you have nothing connected in your house other than a large capacitor, there will be no net power delivered to your house, but there will be a reactive current flowing, and there will be losses in the power lines due to that current. Domestic users usually do not have enough reactive load to worry them very much, but in most countries the company has the right to insist that large users correct their power factor. It would be fair for the company to charge you something for having a very reactive load, but not the full V x A figure since that amount of real power is not having to be generated.

The power companies are also not all that keen on non linear loads like switch mode power supplies and vfd's, inverter welders and so on, which generally all present a rectifier to the power line. This means that they tend to take their current as a pulse at the peak of the AC waveform, which generates harmonics, which are not really welcome in the power distribution network. This can be alleviated by using a choke input filter on the DC side of the rectifier, but such chokes are bulky, heavy, and expensive so naturally do not form part of the usual circuits. Of course they will hate half wave rectifiers even more, these cause DC to flow in the secondary of the pole transformer. Too much DC will saturate the iron core, potentially causing a very high current to flow in the primary.

Here in NZ, if I put in solar power, I have to get a new meter. This is because if I am generating excess, the existing old style meter will not register any power fed back into the mains…that ratchet that someone mentioned above. So a smart meter in that case at least would mean that I did get paid for the power I supply to them, even if they only pay a miserable fraction of what they charge me for power going the other way. They only charge a quite reasonable installation cost for the new meter. I'd quite like to put in some solar cells, at the moment in the hot weather we have been getting I would be able to run the heat pump as a cooler in the daytime which would be very welcome. (Meanwhile in winter it sits idle as we have a wood burner which is much cheaper to run!)

John

[Gordon AParticipant @gordona]

I cannot listen to my little LW/MW/FM transistor radio in one corner of the living room since having a smart meter fitted. Lots of interference from the meter on the other side of the wall……but that's another can of worms!

Gordon.

[AJWParticipant @ajw]

Report it to them!
Electrical items are supposed to conform to a electrical radiation code of conduct.

Alan

[SamsarandaParticipant @samsaranda]

John, in the UK there is no facility for monitoring how much generated power is fed back to the grid with domestic metering, the government assumes that 50% of kWh that are paid for with the feed in tariff will be exported to the grid so they pay every PV generator for the deemed 50%. That could change with smart meters if they can detect exported kw hours.

Dave W

[John HaineParticipant @johnhaine32865]

Posted by Samsaranda on 10/02/2019 21:50:20:

John, in the UK there is no facility for monitoring how much generated power is fed back to the grid with domestic metering, the government assumes that 50% of kWh that are paid for with the feed in tariff will be exported to the grid so they pay every PV generator for the deemed 50%. That could change with smart meters if they can detect exported kw hours.

Dave W

I wonder what the new little kWh meter installed next to the main meter when the solar panels were installed, the reading on which I have to enter when the FIT claim is put in, is measuring then? And the online monitoring page also says how much is being exported. So there is certainly the facility in the installation to monitor it.

As for things interfering with radios, it's a fact of life that electronic devices radiate. Anything like a smart meter will need to meet emc standards. Unfortunately the same is not true of a broadcast receiver, and if it is in a place with low signal strength it's going to be affected by locally generated noise.

[not done it yetParticipant @notdoneityet]

Posted by Samsaranda on 10/02/2019 21:50:20:

John, in the UK there is no facility for monitoring how much generated power is fed back to the grid with domestic metering, the government assumes that 50% of kWh that are paid for with the feed in tariff will be exported to the grid so they pay every PV generator for the deemed 50%. That could change with smart meters if they can detect exported kw hours.

Dave W

That is what is deemed as export (gleefully agreed by the suppliers, with the overseers) for normal installations up to the 3.68kW export limit, allowed for the full FIT payments.

Larger domestic installations can/will have an export meter. They are paid a far lower FIT payment per kWh than the usual domestic systems. Clearly they agreed this level of ‘deemed export’ because they were getting a good deal at the time! All might change when the FIT payments cease, for new installations, come next month-end.

I think many systems will not only have PV-generated kWh meters, but also export meters installed anyway – even if they do not indicate the export. (Some) electronic meters indicate a reverse electricity flow by the normal white flashing light changing to a pink/red continuous light. I expect those meters are totting up the export.

Smart meters would soon tell if the owner was getting paid for too many kWh, so the rules will doubtless be changed when smart meters are nearly universal, if the suppliers are still not benefitting by the present system.

Larger systems likely have to have a 3 phase supply so exported power would not unbalance the local substation transformer.

[VicParticipant @vic]

People are getting wise about so called smart meters.

**LINK**

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