Simplex Restoration

[Ryan JohnParticipant @ryanjohn]

Hi Guys,

I am new here, and I am undertaken a resto project on a 5 inch simplex.

I don't have access to any machines was hoping that I could get a third party to make some boiler fittings for me, All I really need is the regulator steam dome fitting to boiler and lower water gauge (circle bolts) fitting.

Does any one know as to where I will be able to get such service?

Thanks

[Ryan JohnParticipant @ryanjohn]

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

Welcome to the forum Ryan,

I'll >bump< your question

Neil

[David WassonParticipant @davidwasson11489]

If you are in England, John Baguley has made several Simplex parts for other folks. Do a search and you will fine his website. Give him a try.

David

[Ryan JohnParticipant @ryanjohn]

Thanks Neil and Thanks David I will send John an email.

Also another question with the boiler it has no paper work or numbers and is deffo an home made boiler, now I am right to understand that the boiler can still get papers if it is hydro tested 2x working pressure stripped then 1.5x hydo with fittings and then steam test? Or did I dream that? lol

[julian atkinsParticipant @julianatkins58923]

hi ryan,

re the boiler i am afraid these days it rather depends on what view your club boiler inspector takes. generally, a miniature loco boiler without any paperwork is regarded as 'new' and not having complied with the current boiler regs re inspection throughout the build process of internal joints – now hidden in your case.

some clubs are stricter than others. a lot will probably depend on the external condition of the visible joints, especially the foundation ring.

usually a boiler without paperwork or pedigree is regarded as scrap. but again this depends on the discretion of the club boiler inspector.

cheers,

julian

[David WassonParticipant @davidwasson11489]

If the boiler is home-made, it is probably made as per the original Simplex drawings. The drawings are easily available. You can then at least inspect the boiler externally to see if it matches the drawings. Having the drawings and passing all of the cold and hot hydro and steam tests should be good enough for many inspectors. In don't believe there is any history of Simplex boiler failures when built as per drawings.

David

[julian atkinsParticipant @julianatkins58923]

hi david,

the issue is the standard of the hidden internal joints, not the design – though you know my views on the Simplex original boiler design.

ive cut up 2 boilers that failed a hydraulic test. on one the tubes fell out of the inner firebox tubeplate during hacksawing. on the second the penetration of silver solder around the inner hidden joints especially the inner firebox wrapper was non existent.

cheers,

julian

[David WassonParticipant @davidwasson11489]

Aren't the internal joints soldered first and then inspected, at least visually? Any tube soldered into a tube plate that did not have the solder flow well, it would seem pretty obvious before going any further with the job. One end of a tube goes into the smoke box tube plate and the other end goes into the firebox tube plate. These joints should be absolutely perfect, at least visually before going any further with the boiler construction. Most boilers are constructed in pretty much the same way. Tubes should not be falling out when scrapped. If a joint is suspect, stop and make it right before going any further. Page 430 of ME May 3, 1968 shows the inner fire box and tube assembly of a standard Simplex boiler. At this stage of construction, both sides of each tube joint on each end, can, and must be inspected.

The only place on a Simplex boiler that I might change is to add a flange on the throat plate.

Simplex boilers that cannot pass the hydro tests will never be used, just like any other boiler. This is of course not a knock on Simplex boilers, just poor workmanship.

Sounds like the boilers you cutup were simply not made well, not designed poorly, as you have said.

David

[julian atkinsParticipant @julianatkins58923]

hi david,

this is why ryan's boiler would be treated these days by UK club boiler inspectors with a considerable degree of caution. it has not undergone the stage by stage examination under the current regs. plus there is no paperwork and no pedigree. unless you use an endoscope you have no idea how good the internal joints are.

cheers,

julian

[David WassonParticipant @davidwasson11489]

So, a boiler that passes all of the hydro tests will be rejected because it was not scrutinized step by step during construction? That's pretty hard core.

Or, if a boiler passes all required tests, does it get certified anyway?

David

[julian atkinsParticipant @julianatkins58923]

hi david,

at the risk of repeating myself, in the UK you are unlikely to get a club boiler certificate from a club boiler inspector for a boiler without any paperwork or pedigree. things are much stricter these days. passing the initial 2 x WP hydraulic test is but one stage, and in any event doesnt always show that the boiler is soundly constructed

there have been many instances of say locos being bought off ebay without any paperwork or pedigree and a boiler certificate has been refused. however this is a matter for the discretion of the club boiler inspector.

cheers,

julian

[Ryan JohnParticipant @ryanjohn]

Hi all, sorry didn't mean to open a can of worms. I went a should the boiler to an inspector yesterday who said he will be then happy to test once I have made up the blanks, he was happy with the thickness of copper and the crown had no signs of foul play. So fingers crossed all will be ok, I was also told of a rivitted vertical boiler that had no paperwork but after clean up they happily tested a certified.

Fingers crossed, the simplex now runs like a dream on air even with a Stevenson linkage! Just need blanks now, was thinking for inner dome Bush blank designs on solidworks and get laser cut, what thickness would you recommend?

[Russell EberhardtParticipant @russelleberhardt48058]

So, according to Julian, a boiler of unknown pedigree or even one that has been made to EU regs by an amateur cannot be used even if it passes all the pressure tests. What then is the point of the pressure tests?

. . . and people in the UK complain about having to meet European rules!

Russell (in France)

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

In fairness to Julian, I can imagine several circumstances where a pressure test alone is not proof of a safe boiler. An example would be where the boiler wrapper is too thin – able to take the pressure but easily vulnerable to damage.

Neil

[Ryan JohnParticipant @ryanjohn]

Posted by Neil Wyatt on 21/02/2016 12:15:55:

In fairness to Julian, I can imagine several circumstances where a pressure test alone is not proof of a safe boiler. An example would be where the boiler wrapper is too thin – able to take the pressure but easily vulnerable to damage.

Neil

Oh with out a doubt, I think a boiler should not be tested if it looks a thick as say a coke bottle say, but made to drawings, I think its a case of using common sense, The clubs boiler inspectors should be competent enough to decide to test a boiler and when to deny even a test.

But I feel there should not be a blanket ban, and maybe even better understanding by the feds as its not black and white.

[David WassonParticipant @davidwasson11489]

Yes, common sense should certainly prevail. A boiler that has been made as thick as a coke bottle, has not really been made to the drawings. A failed boiler, by definition, has not been made to drawings either. A poorly made boiler is self correcting, it will fail and never be used no matter what.

A potential problem I see, as described by Julian, is that a boiler can only pass if it has been witnessed step by step during construction and then passes the tests. What happens if the inspector dies or leaves the club? Now he is gone and there is no "witness" for your boiler construction even though it still passes the tests? This makes no absolutely no sense and is counter-productive to the hobby.

Yes, I do hope the boiler inspectors use more common sense versus tossing out a boiler simply because no one witnessed the construction. Sounds like Ryan's inspectors are more than likely doing the right thing.

 

Edited By David Wasson on 21/02/2016 13:30:06

Edited By David Wasson on 21/02/2016 13:31:12

[Jeff DaymanParticipant @jeffdayman43397]

If a copper boiler passes a hydraulic test and appears to be of good construction and workmanship generally, and then passes a steam test, I can't really see how an inspector can rationally fail such a boiler, regardless of where it came from.

If a club inspector failed such a boiler I think it's time to join a different club. Tinpot dictators are ten a penny at many clubs of all kinds in my experience. When successful test results are overruled by such dictators and rule makers it becomes a losing battle and precious hobby time is lost (and any prospect of fun running an engine goes out the window).

As someone mentioned, there is little or no record of model engine boilers failing causing any injuries, over the more than 100 years of the team hobby, so there isn't much to justify excluding a tested safe boiler from use.

Just my $0.02 worth. Your mileage may vary.

JD (not a club member and never will be)

[julian atkinsParticipant @julianatkins58923]

hi jeff,

i dont disagree with what you say. but it is a matter for each individual club boiler inspector to use his discretion in the light of the current regs for boilers without any paperwork or pedigree.

if everything looks ok from close examination of external and accessible internal joints with good silver soldering then you might be ok.

however i can think of lots of examples where this isnt the case. eg comsol flooded over a foundation ring and outer firehole ring. that would be pretty fatal IMHO.

cheers,

julian

[Jeff DaymanParticipant @jeffdayman43397]

As I said "If a copper boiler passes a hydraulic test and appears to be of good construction and workmanship generally, and then passes a steam test, I can't really see how an inspector can rationally fail such a boiler"

Why would "comsol flooded over over a foundation ring and outer firehole ring" be "fatal" to a boiler that passed tests as above?

You are sounding like a biased boiler inspector rather than an engineer basing conclusions on observed successful tests. JD

[julian atkinsParticipant @julianatkins58923]

Jeff,

i dont want to disagree with you. it is up to an individual UK club boiler inspector's discretion.

comsol flooded over joints (rather than non silver soldered stay heads) indicates a poor attempt to cover up bad penetration of the final (perhaps most difficult) joints. comsol wont cure a bad silver soldered structural joint. it is only a caulking medium and has no inherent strength.

cheers,

julian

[David WassonParticipant @davidwasson11489]

If a boiler could not pass a pressure test, comsol would not make a difference, since, as you say, it has no inherent strength. Why cloud the issue by mentioning this material? Once again, a poorly made boiler will never pass inspection.

[S.D.L.Participant @s-d-l]

,

Posted by Russell Eberhardt on 21/02/2016 11:46:40,

. What then is the point of the pressure tests?

. . . and people in the UK complain about having to meet European rules!

Russell (in France)

The pressure test forms part of the examination of a boiler and viewing during construction forms another part. At the Sourthern Fed and Northern Association Boiler seminar I went to it was recommended for the boiler inspectors to take digital pictures at the internal inspection stages.

Steve

[S.D.L.Participant @s-d-l]

Posted by Jeff Dayman on 21/02/2016 18:14:01:

If a club inspector failed such a boiler I think it's time to join a different club. Tinpot dictators are ten a penny at many clubs of all kinds in my experience. When successful test results are overruled by such dictators and rule makers it becomes a losing battle and precious hobby time is lost (and any prospect of fun running an engine goes out the window).

JD (not a club member and never will be)

When calling people tin pot dictators it would be wise to consider that clubs need indemnity insurance for the boiler inspectors, and where they make a reckless decision out side of the guidance they would be personally liable. Its amazing how many people are not prepaired to be an inspector when they understand the responsibilities.

Steve

[David WassonParticipant @davidwasson11489]

I, for one, would be glad to be an inspector. There is no history of model boilers exploding. I think someone is attempting to "protect" others from a danger that simply does not exist. Are model boilers dangerous? Of course they are. There are a few simple tests to show if a boiler is safe or not. Requiring digital build photos and a history of paperwork seems a bit over the top. Next, you will need X-rays of all joints and chemical tests of the metal used. These are model boilers, what are these folks thinking? I'm not saying some of this is not a bad idea, but, to require it, is too much. This is a perfect way to discourage anyone wanting to build a live steam locomotive and destroy the hobby.

Where did I put my hack saw? I've got to work to do! HA!

David

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