Shaper 3 phase or Single

[lee hawkins 1Participant @leehawkins1]

Hello,

I am now the owner of a really nice condition Elliott 10m Shaper, it's fitted with a dual voltage 3 phase motor, my electrics is single phase, I don't know really what to do, do I fit a single phase motor on it or do I buy a inverter? the inverter from drives direct is going to cost me £135, expense I don't really want, I already do have a single phase motor do nothing, are any other solutions out there?

Regards

lee

[lee hawkins 1Participant @leehawkins1]

[Russell EberhardtParticipant @russelleberhardt48058]

There shouldn't be any problem using a single phase motor of similar power rating. Depending on your three phase motor design it may or may not be possible to use it with the inverter without modifications.

Russell;

[Ian PParticipant @ianp]

Lee

I would go the inverter route every time and not even think about swapping motors. If the 'inverter' is a VFD (which it should be for over £100) you will not regret it. OK its a lump to fork out but you will forget the cost once you use it.

I have no shaper experience since school metalwork but I would think its one machine that would really benefit from variable speed. There are numerous other advantages with a VFD like really slow speed (with very little torque) which is ideal for checking the setup. With a normal contactor its all or nothing whereas a VFD can be set to have gentle acceleration etc.

I have VFD on most of my motors (including the usual lathe, Mill, linisher, pillar drill etc), most have come from eBay and none cost me more than £35.

Ian P

[SaxalbyParticipant @saxalby]

I have no problems running my Boxford 8 in. shaper on a single phase motor.

Barry

[James BParticipant @jamesb]

Hi Lee,

One thing to be aware of is motor speed. I have an Elliot 10M, and the 3 Phase motor is 6 Pole, meaning it runs at around 900 RPM. Usually 1 phase motors are 4 Pole – 1425 rpm approx. If you go for a straight motor swap with one of these, your ram speeds will increase accordingly, if you do not adjust the pulley sizes.

I ended up leaving my original motor and running mine from a rotary converter – a bit noisier, but all runs fine.

Good Luck,

James

[_Paul_Participant @_paul_]

From an earlier post here

You could run it on an RPC which should be cheaper to make than the cost of an Inverter, that said the inverter will give variable speed and a lovely smooth finish.

As a comparison my Alba 1a has a 1/2hp 3Phase motor and can produce a reallysmooth finish.

My Elliott 10m has a 3/4hp single phase and will not produce the same quality finish no matter how much I tweak the setup/tooling/lubricant.

Similar behaviour from both my single phase Boxford 8" and 7" Atlas.

Regards

Paul

[James BParticipant @jamesb]

Hi Lee,

Also, if you send me your email address on a PM, I have a PDF manual for the 10M I can send you if you need one.

James

[RobboParticipant @robbo]

Lee,

Have an Elliott 10M, 3-phase as usual. Did manage to find a single phase motor of the same speed, as James has said its an unusual speed, but prefer it with the 3-phase and an inverter. Only use the inverter as a phase converter, and don't use it for variable speed etc, still use the Elliott gearbox/pulleys.

The price you quote seems expensive for an inverter to run a 1/2 HP motor, would have thought about £90 would get a good one,  1/2 to 3/4 HP.

Phil

Edited By Robbo on 13/12/2013 13:51:57

[LambtonParticipant @lambton]

Lee,

Keep the 3 phase motor and get an inverter. Talk to:

Gavin Oseman
Malvern
WR14
UK
01684 574966
[email protected]

He supplies used inverters from quality manufactures at sensible prices.

I have not used his services personally but I have friends who are very satisfied with his services.

Eric

[john fletcher 1Participant @johnfletcher1]

Before buying an inverter,consider you already have a 900 rpm motor which now doubt can be reconnected in Delta, why not make up a control box using two banks of capacitors. Both banks are used for starting and then just one for running. The details, values etc are in the late JIM COX's excellent book. EX fluorescent lamp circuit capacitors work well.Ted

[lee hawkins 1Participant @leehawkins1]

Thanks everyone for the replies

Given me something to think about, always worth asking about other peoples thought on things like this, recon I will be going the inverter route, I have never ran a 3 phase motor before, I know everyone says they run allot smoother/quieter, that will be nice.

I have been quoted a price from Drives direct, they quoted me product code and price, Can anyone on here tell me exactly which one to buy, if I searched around EBay for second hand, I am not exactly sure which one to look out for.

Regards

lee

[Martin Walsh 1Participant @martinwalsh1]

Posted by john fletcher 1 on 13/12/2013 16:01:25:

Before buying an inverter,consider you already have a 900 rpm motor which now doubt can be reconnected in Delta, why not make up a control box using two banks of capacitors. Both banks are used for starting and then just one for running. The details, values etc are in the late JIM COX's excellent book. EX fluorescent lamp circuit capacitors work well.Ted

 

 

 

 

I done this on my Elliot shaper it does work but you do lose a lot of power

from the motor.

congrats on getting the 10m shaper you will find it a great useful addition to the workshop

best wishes martin

 

Edited By Martin Walsh 1 on 14/12/2013 09:20:49

Edited By Martin Walsh 1 on 14/12/2013 09:25:14

[Russell EberhardtParticipant @russelleberhardt48058]

Before buying an inverter make sure that the motor can be converted from star (415 V) to delta (240 V). Inverters that produce 415 V are significantly more expensive. I have fitted inverters and new three phase motors to my lathe and my mill with new Marelli motors from Drives Direct. The motors are designed for use with inverters and have more cooling than usual so that they can run continuously at low speeds. I don't know if you will be running the shaper much at low speed but it's something else to think about.

Russell.

[RobboParticipant @robbo]

Rusell,

The Hoover motors fitted to Elliotts are dual voltage. But see also the OP!!

Phil

[Ian PParticipant @ianp]

Posted by lee hawkins 1 on 14/12/2013 06:54:46:

Thanks everyone for the replies

Given me something to think about, always worth asking about other peoples thought on things like this, recon I will be going the inverter route, I have never ran a 3 phase motor before, I know everyone says they run allot smoother/quieter, that will be nice.

I have been quoted a price from Drives direct, they quoted me product code and price, Can anyone on here tell me exactly which one to buy, if I searched around EBay for second hand, I am not exactly sure which one to look out for.

Regards

lee

Lee

There is no 'exactly which one to buy'. There are dozens at least of VFDs that could be used. One of the replies suggested Gavin Oseman and although I have only ever seen his adverts I think he is knowledgeable and his prices look good so unless you know much about the subject I would give him a call.

Ian P

[Ady1Participant @ady1]

I already do have a single phase motor doing nothing, are any other solutions out there?

Put the single phase on and see how it goes

When I got my lathe I got a new motor and chucked the old original to one side

However, when I got more serious the newer motor was running for hours and getting seriously hot because of the amount of work the lathe was doing

So I put the "old clunky" motor back on and it runs for hours and hours with no serious heat issues

It looks a bit like this one

The old stuff is "built to run forever" and should never be discounted as an option

Mine has a fan blower at one end of the spindle and the pulley at the other end and runs happily all day on a 5amp fuse, 0.5HP

 

 

Edited By Ady1 on 14/12/2013 11:31:27

[DMBParticipant @dmb]

Ady1,
I have read somewhere that older motors were more heavily built with a certain type of insulation and could run cool for hours and modern motors lightly built get very hot and have a different type of insulation which will withstand the heat. They are supposed to be dsigned to run at a high temp.
John.

[lee hawkins 1Participant @leehawkins1]

I am in contact with someone who has a Danfoss VLT2015 1.3kw Single Phase Input 3 Phase Output Inverter, they want £75 for it

As the motor on my shaper is dual voltage it should run ok, but the motor needs to be change from star 415v to 240v delta, is this a simple task or do I need to go pulling wires out the motor?

Regards

lee

[_Paul_Participant @_paul_]

Dual voltage (220/415v) motors should have a junction box on them which may if you're lucky have a wiring diagram in it, you will have to open the junction box cover and alter the "links" (brass strips with a hole either end) motors will vary by manufacturer but typically should look something like this

Example of a STAR Mode (415V) Connection

Example of a DELTA (220V) Mode Connection

Paul

[lee hawkins 1Participant @leehawkins1]

Paul,

Thanks for that

This dont look too Brain taxing, can it be as simple as that, .

Regards

lee

[LambtonParticipant @lambton]

Lee,

Yes it is that simple – one of the benefits of a dual voltage 3 phase motor. Another benefit is ease of reversing the direction of rotation by just interchanging any two of the incoming power wires (not necessary when using an inverter which will have a built in F/R switching facility).

Some older fractional horse power 3 phase motors that do not require star /delta starting are often connected in star only (400 v). The only option with this type is to dismantle the motor, dig out the star point and rewire the motor in delta. This is best left to a motor repair specialist.

Eric

[lee hawkins 1Participant @leehawkins1]

Thats good,

I didnt fancy stripping a perfectly good motor down,with a good chance of messing up, been and bought the inverter now, so all should be good

Regards

lee

[lee hawkins 1Participant @leehawkins1]

Just checked and had a look inside the connection box on the motor, and inside the lid is the wirring diagram for both star and delta.

Regards

lee

[OuBallieParticipant @ouballie]

Lee,

I'm running my Boxfprd 8" with a VFD, and it's a pleasure to use.

The same VFD runs the motor on my drilling machine, which is even more of a pleasure now that I can get the speed spot on.

Geoff – Enjoying a mug of Kai.

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