Serious question, What is a Mini Lathe?

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by Brian G on 06/08/2019 09:40:36:

Going back to the original question, given that a typical 7x Mini Lathe has a 20mm spindle bore (significantly bigger than an ML7 for example), an ER32 collet chuck would seem to me to be a perfect match and much more useful than my ER25 one, or for that matter the tiny hole in the centre of the 80mm 3-jaw chuck supplied with the lathe.

.

A very good point, Brian … and with a little bit of design effort they could probably delete the Morse Taper and incorporate both an ER32 holder and a chuck flange on the spindle nose.

MichaelG.

[Nick Clarke 3Participant @nickclarke3]

Posted by Anthony Knights on 06/08/2019 09:52:30:

It doesn't seem to matter what hobby one decides to do, there is always a certain amount of snobbery involved. I came across the same thing when I took up photography.

Interestingly the same thought crossed my mind. As a film camera collector, at one time I concentrated on Former Soviet Union cameras. Many of these were copies of German cameras and the build quality was shocking, many can never have worked well from new – and some never!

Comparing a Zorki or a Fed with the Leica – the Leica silky smooth and engineered to perfection, while the Russian equivalent would be crude, mass produced and frequently smelled of gun oil when it arrived. Comparing various Kiev models with Pentacon, Hasselblad or Contax originals was the same.

But the quality of the photographs produced was very difficult, often impossible to tell apart.

[Niels AbildgaardParticipant @nielsabildgaard33719]

Posted by Michael Gilligan on 06/08/2019 09:55:24:

Posted by Brian G on 06/08/2019 09:40:36:

Going back to the original question, given that a typical 7x Mini Lathe has a 20mm spindle bore (significantly bigger than an ML7 for example), an ER32 collet chuck would seem to me to be a perfect match and much more useful than my ER25 one, or for that matter the tiny hole in the centre of the 80mm 3-jaw chuck supplied with the lathe.

.

A very good point, Brian … and with a little bit of design effort they could probably delete the Morse Taper and incorporate both an ER32 holder and a chuck flange on the spindle nose.

MichaelG.

All the 75 kg max mini have spindle bearings with 62 mm diameter.

A rejuvenation solution with 30mm bore/ER40 and extreme accuracy can look like this

If the spindle is casehardened and the 72mm recess comes as 72.05 it is no big deal to get it down to 72.00 with a sharp piece of carbide as first operation when exchanged.

Edited By Niels Abildgaard on 06/08/2019 10:38:34

Edited By Niels Abildgaard on 06/08/2019 10:40:09

[BazyleParticipant @bazyle]

I think another item to include in the definition is the motor incorporated in the design which makes it a ready to run package
In the ME show and pages of ME about 1980 no lathes were offered including a motor the provision and attachment being left to the new owner who was assumed to have a support structure of school metalwork classes, apprenticeship, relatives in engineering etc. The introduction of the self contained, if poor design, Hobbymat showed the way to go with a ready to run package.

[Nicholas FarrParticipant @nicholasfarr14254]

Hi, the term Mini lathe, I think is a marketing expression, in that it implies that it is smaller than what one would consider an average size lathe but not as small as anything that could be classed as micro. The name "Mini Lathe" is also very easy to say and remember and of course does not put it into any specific category i.e. Watchmaker, Toolroom, Model Engineer or precision etc. It will also imply that it can be accommodated into a small working area and as Mick B1 pointed out, that it can be manhandled by only one reasonably strong person.

As for "cheap & cheerful" well they are far superior to the average lathes that were considered "Model Engineer" lathes back in the 1940's era that my late farther had like his RandA lathe shown below.

This lathe and my Conquest lathe that I have accommodate roughly the same environmental envelope, but this one doesn't have an integral motor/drive train, it only has 305mm max between centres, (my Conquest has 350mm) and 1MT in both the headstock and the tailstock and has a basic cross/top-slide and there are no graduations on the feed screws. Its use is limited compared to the Conquest and the price in real terms was dearer.

Regards Nick.

Edited By Nicholas Farr on 06/08/2019 11:11:32

[Howard LewisParticipant @howardlewis46836]

Blue Healer summed it up.

A SC3 can probably do as much, if not more,and possibly better, than a Myford ML3 or 4.

It is less about the machine, all other things being equal, and more about the operator.

An idiot can produce scrap on a 2 ton Industrial lathe, but a skilled craftsman can produce precision work on a Super Adept. Compare a watchmakers lathe with a SC2!

I am not a Myford addict, but stand in awe of the work, and of those who did it, produced on 7 Series Myfords.

Howard

[An OtherParticipant @another21905]

I would agree with the comments about snobbery – it appears to crop up often. A point which has often struck me when comparing descriptions of 'modern' model production, and that of, say, 50 or 60 years or more ago, is that if you read many of the old descriptions, they deal routinely with situations which nowadays seem quite horrendous in terms of producing things – I have many descriptions in old MEs of home made lathes made by people during the last war, for example, which were eventually used to produce some outstanding work. They were built using scrap, or modifying various other items, or by people learning to how to cast and make their own parts.

There are also descriptions in (for example) LBSC's articles describing how to allow for problems when using, to judge from some comments, what would nowadays be regarded as inferior tools. This all seems to me to point to the conclusion that it is not the tool which is important, so much as the person using it, and learning how to overcome shortcomings.

I would also solidly agree with assertion that without the advent of the cheap, chinese-developed 'mini-lathes' and other tools, these forums would be dominated by the professional model-makers. There is no way I can afford something like a Myford these days after the intervention of Her Majesties Robbers and Crooks, but I get hours of fun out of my chinese lathe, which I can modify to suit myself at a reasonable cost.

I for one would like to see a little less of the criticism of the tools used, and more discussion of how to improve those tools, or recommendations from people who use them and know how to get results from them – some peole on this thread are at least trying to do that.

Edited By An Other on 06/08/2019 19:22:33

[Anthony KnightsParticipant @anthonyknights16741]

Hi there Nick Clark 3. My first SLR camera was a Russian Zenit which I bought at a second hand shop after going to my first air show and found my ordinary camera wasn't up to the job. Upgraded to a Minolta clone and eventually an actual Minolta (still manual with no fancy auto focus etc). Eventually stopped going to air shows when no new aircraft were on display. I have still got all the kit although is now obsolete. The most spectacular photo I took is below, taken with a 500mm telephoto lens with a X2 multiplier, which accounts for the poor focus.

Apologies for  thread drift .

Edited By Anthony Knights on 06/08/2019 19:32:19

Edited By Anthony Knights on 06/08/2019 19:41:42

Edited By Anthony Knights on 06/08/2019 19:42:59

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

Posted by Barrie Lever on 06/08/2019 09:25:29:

I am very confident of my insulation from the 'Mini lathe', I only buy parts and tools from one vendor within the model engineering supply chain and he does not major on Chinese products, further more he tells me that business is good.

I suspect you benefit in one very important way.

Without mini lathes and affordable imported tools from the far east, I think our hobby would be an ailing niche activity by now.

I doubt any single item has done more to bring new blood into the hobby than the 'Mini lathe'. This benefits all of us, whether we have one or not.

| You will see from my truncated list that manufacturers come and go, this will be the case with
| the 'Mini Lathe' manufacturers, various forces (government directives, commercial pressures,
| environment issues etc.) will force them to move onto what might seem like greener pastures,
| very few of them will be recognisable in 25 years time.

SIEG have been making Mini Lathes for nearly 25 years, as have Real Bull and others.

If you added up all the variants I am pretty confident more Mini Lathes have been but than any other design of engineering lathe, except, just possibly, the South Bend 4 1/2" and its derivatives like the Boxford.

Neil

[Brian GParticipant @briang]

Times change. Whilst there have been many modifications and improvements to Myford lathes in ME and MEW over the years, try searching for "Lathe" on YouTube and note how many entries there are for Mini Lathes and their big brother the 9×20.

Given that schools no longer allow pupils any physical contact with machinery, do we really expect newcomers with no experience either to know how to choose and refurbish a 40 year-old machine, calibrated in units they had never used, or to spend a month's income on something they know nothing about?

If we value the future of our hobbies we should all be thankful for the mini lathe.

Brian

[Alan VosParticipant @alanvos39612]

Posted by Anthony Knights on 06/08/2019 19:31:10:

The most spectacular photo I took is below, taken with a 500mm telephoto lens with a X2 multiplier, which accounts for the poor focus.

Fairford 1993? If so, my main memory is that the pilot who landed close enough to be cauight on camera calmly lit a cigarette.

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

Posted by Alan Vos on 07/08/2019 18:47:08:

Posted by Anthony Knights on 06/08/2019 19:31:10:

The most spectacular photo I took is below, taken with a 500mm telephoto lens with a X2 multiplier, which accounts for the poor focus.

Fairford 1993? If so, my main memory is that the pilot who landed close enough to be cauight on camera calmly lit a cigarette.

Supposedly the only severe injury was one pilot punching the other and breaking his jaw…

Neil

[Former MemberParticipant @formermember32069]

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[BazyleParticipant @bazyle]

With the advent of CAD and CNC if the current mini lathe makers quit but there is still demand then it will be picked up in India or the Philippines at the drop of a hat.
More likely it will be superseded by a new product for new demand for a small CNC lathe of mill to match the new generation of non-hands on computer users to complement their 3D printer.

[Former MemberParticipant @formermember32069]

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[Bob StevensonParticipant @bobstevenson13909]

Oh Barrie!…ho'hum!……..of course everyone is entitled to their own opinion but I'm tempted to think that you never will see while you are keeping your eyes so tightly shut!

As mentioned above, I owned and used a mini-lathe for 10 years,……but I did not buy or choose it and, like you, was quite 'sniffy' about Chinese products. And then a very close friend died suddenly. For some inexplicable reason the grief came out as a disinclination to make things (after a lifetime of doing so) ….So, some kind friends of my wife aquired a mini-lathe and it appeared in the dining room one day to my great surprise and considerable annoyance. After some very unpleasant words She persuaded me to "At least make some little thing that I can show them for their kind gesture"……Thus, i became a mini-lathe 'toyer' and, by increments, a night time turner of little things and then a clock maker……

The Chinese mini-lathe is very basic, not very well designed and, frankly, a bit crude….the VW Beetle of lathes, but then, that's part of it's value and interest. It's NOT for engineers and people who appreciate the finest machine tools. It's for people who, for various reasons, are'nt going to have a Myford in the kitchen table and are not really interested in having a lathe at all!…they just want to make stuff for a minimal outlay of money and space.

I eventually moved on to another small lathe which is vastly better than a 'mini-lathe' in just about every way. But, ti was the mini-lathe that jerked me out of the groove, and for that I'm (now) grateful….

You have your own reasons for keeping your eyes tight shut, but, please, don't be a pompous ass!

[Former MemberParticipant @formermember32069]

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[Bob StevensonParticipant @bobstevenson13909]

Barrie,…….Thanks for gentlemanly reply!

…..We all see a different 'Big picture' and getting to realise that is actually the 'Biggest Picture' to see!

Bob

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Barrie, and Bob

I am pleased to see a ceasefire … long may it continue

Opinions may be strongly held, and are often formed within an individual's personal 'reference frame'

A forum like this is [or at least should be] a place where we can freely express and discuss those opinions for the common good …

MichaelG.

[Former MemberParticipant @formermember32069]

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[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Barrie,

I thought 'ceasefire' [a temporary suspension of hostlities] to be the appropriate word; but I'm happy to consider alternatives.

MichaelG.

[Andy CarruthersParticipant @andycarruthers33275]

The Chinese are very good at taking a long term view, sometimes several generations

India is unlikely to become a large scale manufacturing centre for the simple reason the country lacks natural resources – no Oil, Iron ore etc. Whilst China import huge volumes of raw resource, their command economy, centrally planned infrastructure, opaque financial investments and currency manipulation give huge commercial advantage to local producers

And back to the original question lest this be a thread drift too far…

I think Dave hit the nail on the head with his definition

Frankly I don't care what my lathe (WM180) is classified as, it's what I have to hand (until I fix the WM240) so it is the best available to me. I'm still learning and the lathe is way more competent than I am, doesn't stop me wanting a bigger, better lathe though

[Former MemberParticipant @formermember32069]

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[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Posted by Barrie Lever on 08/08/2019 07:52:39:

Bob

…

I guess what frustrates me is that I think there is a bigger picture than just getting a lathe on the kitchen table, fawning to what as you describe is a very basic, not very well designed and frankly a bit crude piece of equipment does not illustrate the big picture in my opinion.

…

Barrie

The debate could go on forever, because it depends on what floats your boat. Dog owners tend to dislike cats.

Chinese hobby lathes have their place, as do more expensive lathes. I have a utilitarian view of tools, not only is 'good-enough' sufficient, spending good money on 'better' is a wasteful sin! But it's all a matter of perspective and I respect people who enjoy good tools.

Looking at the big picture shows most modern machine tools are unaffordium. Big picture today is dominated by multi-axis CNC machines consuming 10kW or more, physically too big for most workshops, and costing £200,000 and up. How about run-out better than 0.02mm a metre away from the 3 jaw chuck running at 20000 to 30000 rpm?

While good quality manual engine lathes will always have a role, they've been losing ground for at least a century. The technological gap between a Myford Super 7 and a Machine Centre is far bigger than the gap between a mini-lathe and a Super 7! Big picture, all hobby machines are inferior, so why worry about it…

Dave

[Former MemberParticipant @formermember32069]

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