Precision mini/micro lathe?

[Dianne BestParticipant @diannebest69516]

I have been doing machining since I was a teenager (a LONG time ago!) but my shop was more geared toward large work. My lathe is a 10×48" Southbend WWII lathe that has seen better days – the V's are worn, the leadscrews are worn, the chuck needs to be replaced but it was sufficient to build a 1/2 scale traction engine 20 years ago. It certainly isn't suited to doing small parts to precision tolerances yet it isn't worth extensive rebuilding.

I would like to purchase a small mini or micro lathe to do very small model work but I am on a pension so I have to watch costs. I don't need anything as large as the 7x lathes but have no idea which micro lathes may be good quality and which ones are junk.

Any guidance from experienced machinists?

[Dianne BestParticipant @diannebest69516]

What to look for?

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

Peatol, Cowells, or a second-hand Unimat might be what you need. Or an old Toyo.

The big issue is whether or not you need screwcutting.

The Proxxon lathes are well made but are not cheap.

Neil

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Sherline would be another option depending on budget

[Gary WoodingParticipant @garywooding25363]

Posted by JasonB on 16/10/2016 16:22:44:

Sherline would be another option depending on budget

As would a PULTRA

[Cornish JackParticipant @cornishjack]

I shall, shortly, be disposing of two Pultras, a Unimat 3, Unimat SL and, if I can find it (!!) a Peatol. PM me if of any interest.

rgds

Bill

[Peter HallParticipant @peterhall61789]

I have Unimat, Toyo, Perris and Sherline lathes for the small stuff. (Well, they don't take up too much space.) If pushed, I would hang on to the Sherline over all the others. It works, it's flexible and there's a good range of tooling available (and at this size it's not difficult to make your own). Downside is the cost in the UK, and if Sterling continues to fall that will only rise. Available new from millhillsupplies.co.uk . If you're in the States they'll be cheaper and you can buy direct from Sherline. They sometimes come up on ebay or gumtree; if you're lucky you may find one with comprehensive tooling included (like I did).

I like my Toyo ML210 a lot, but tooling is expensive to buy new, and non-existent on the secondhand market. The lathes can be had quite cheaply on ebay. Unimat 3 lathes are more plentiful secondhand, and more tooling is available, but they have stupid motors which are not continuously rated. You have to keep turning them off to let them cool down. Personally I would avoid the older Unimats; they're a bit flimsy. My old Perris is a labour of love and pretty much the same as an early Cowells. I've had to make my own tooling and the belt tends to slip under load. Cowells come highly recommended by some, but if you want to check out their prices, just make sure you're sitting down before you go to their website.

Pete

[Dianne BestParticipant @diannebest69516]

Screw cutting would be nice but not mandatory.

I am in central Canada so shipping cost would be a factor.

Browsing micro lathes brings up a few but it is hard to tell the quality. At least 7x lathes have online reviews.

[IanTParticipant @iant]

From what I've read Dianne, Taig lathes and mills are highly regarded by their owners. I have a Taig milling head and consider it a very nice tool – well made and robust.

There are quite a few Taig owners out there but if I had to choose just one – it would probably be John R Bentleys 'Modelengines.info' website. I think a browse through his workshop and engine pages will demonstrate what is possible with Taig machines.

http://modelengines.info/

Regards,

IanT

[MWParticipant @mw27036]

I would say sherline as i own one, but one of the things that really bugged me about the sherline lathe was the size/power from the motor, it's really not setup for cutting steel at a meaningful size.(Anything more than 1/2" diameter without a work around). 

By this i'm talking about the torque ratio that you get from the pulley arrangement, a speed control box makes it tempting to think that slowing down electronically is the same as slowing down mechanically with the full power of the motor.

You have to remember that it only has 1/5HP? And the motor has no fan cooling which would limit your duty cycle, although we probably have the lathe switched on for less time than we think, sherline doesn't seem to think this is an issue so i will let other decide what to make of that. This could be a similar problem with other micro lathes where the electronic speed control seems to be taking hold.

There are three work arounds that i know of to accomodate for this;

1. Is to do what i've seen others do and simply ignore it by always running the motor at full speed but using carbide tooling to get round the incumbent overheating that normally would happen on HSS.

2. Would probably be the most engineered solution and that would be to make a new set of pulleys out of aluminium that would limit the maximum speed down to say..just under 500rpm, i find that speed comfortable to use on stainless steel material using HSS tools. I'm not saying i don't like speed control by the way, i'm actually quite a fan.

3. Having burnt out a sherline motor, I would be in the market to upgrade it a bit to a 500W brushless fan cooled motor, probably the costliest if you don't already have a sherline.

I have a few proxxon products too and really rate them, but i don't own one of their lathe machines so i don't think it would be my business to say whether it's good or not but they are costly, sherline definitely do more accessories though and probably have stood the test of time, i would be intrigued by the proxxon, but then sherline are a tried and true brand for microlathes, they are very accurate as well, working to within .01(mm) casually seemed like a breeze. That point i wouldn't dispute, they are the bees knees for turning small accurate parts. 

It would be a difficult decision to decide which i think is better, if it weren't for the motors hiccups i'd be all over sherline. But then this is to suggest that proxxon wouldn't also suffer in that department, and i just don't know, i've been more than honest about sherline but could you maybe find another who is willing to be frank about a proxxon lathe? who knows maybe they'll show up.

(If you want screw cutting you'll need an accessory for sherline which you can't use under motor power. There is the other option to use the CNC version with steppers and use mach 3's threading program)

If all you want is standard metric and imperial threads, just stick with taps and dies, make a tapping chuck or die chuck and just use the tailstock as a ram. It's probably better to keep the threading accessory for rainy day on  personal projects that have the need for threads on bigger sizes. 

(Probably getting tired of hearing this but yes you need another accessory for the ability to use a compound slide, otherwise you're limited to tilting the headstock every time you want a taper. I think it was sherlines policy to provide the bare bones of a lathe at a set price and then let the user decide what they want with it.)

Michael W

Edited By Michael Walters on 16/10/2016 20:51:00

[AjohnwParticipant @ajohnw51620]

Personally I wouldn't exclude the one that hasn't been mentioned. The hobbymat. The one I had was precise. The bed arrangement is so simple I suspect they all are. They have a reasonably powerful motor and are perfectly capable of screw cutting. If the headstock bearings are a bit yuck I suspect they are easy to replace. 2 I have used have been fine. The centre distance means that stub drills can be handy. If you do buy one I would suggest waiting for one with 3 & 4 jaw plus gears.

2 weaknesses. Over tightening tools can crack the cross slide casting. The saddle fit needs to be adjusted rather carefully. It uses a screw push pull arrangement for adjustment and if over tightened the lead screw nut is likely to wear out. Some come with a small 4 way tool [post which may get round the cracking problem. Plenty survive though so it must just be a case of some one being over the top with them. Some one cracked mine after I sold it.

Having owned both they are much better machines than a unimat and can do a lot more.

The Proxon's are very light weight. I'd be cautious. Also rather expensive.

I also had a Peatol / Taig. It was extremely precise and I managed to do a number of very precise parts with it. Even fits suggesting that their claimed accuracy is correct. The headstock warps with time though and they start turning a taper. It's possible to shim them back into true with very thin shimming. Mine came with a 1/4 hp motor which is more than enough. No variable speed just belt change which is easy to do. I think that they can still be bought this way in the UK under the Peatol brand. All of the parts for them including the chucks are well made. I had the lot. The tailstock on them is rather weird but it does work.

If you look at Sherline's comment about alignment I wouldn't call them a precision lathe by any means.

Hopper managed to turn an Opti Baby lathe into a decent machine. It had an initial problem but he did a little more to it than fix that. Brian the owner is now lusting after a larger lathe. They are rather crudely made. If you look at Brian Jones's thread you will see what he has made so far. All of the Chinese lathes are made to meet a certain price range and the babies are the cheapest of the lot and suffer in some ways due to that.

Mini lathes. I'd suggest Warco as they come with an accuracy report. There are a number of happy Warco owners on here. There have been very few other makes reported with problems. One springs to mind sounded like it had a warped bed. There is lots and lots on the internet about making these lathes into wonderful machines and he followed them and found the problem was something else. If a Warco doesn't meet it's spec the answer is simple. Neil had a mini lathe of machine mart. I suspect an exchange would be entirely feasible if one of those turned out to be duff but have to ask him about taper and accuracy. Sounds to me that as you are aware your current lathe has a worn bed that you want something better. There are lots of variant of the mini lathes. Some have longer beds than others for instance. Some metric ones actually have screw cutting indicators which save having to reverse the lathe. Some don't have an indicator at all. Some come with more equipment than others.

John

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Edited By Ajohnw on 16/10/2016 23:43:13

[Enough!Participant @enough]

Posted by Dianne Best on 16/10/2016 18:54:02:

I am in central Canada so shipping cost would be a factor.

Lee Valley sell Taig and have stores in Winnipeg, Saskatoon, Calgary and Edmonton fwiw.

[not done it yetParticipant @notdoneityet]

Cannot comment on mini lathes but I would agree that Lee Valley seem to only stock good quality items. I always spend time in their Ottowa store when I visit. But I would suggest they are (or were) more woodworking orientated than metalwork.

[IanTParticipant @iant]

That's broadly true NDIY – but their (old) Toronto shop certainly used to have at least one cabinet with Taig lathes & accessories in it and there are Canadian Taig owners who purchased their lathes there. So I'm pretty sure they used to sell them. I will admit that I don't recall seeing any metal working kit last time I was at Lee Valley but that was two years ago now.

Easy to check though (which I just did) and Lee Valley are still listed as their Canadian retailer here:

http://www.taigtools.com/dealers.html

Regards,

 

IanT

Edited By IanT on 17/10/2016 09:20:10

Edited By IanT on 17/10/2016 09:24:57

[Gordon TarlingParticipant @gordontarling37126]

I had a Sherline for a few years and was generally very happy with it. The main disadvantage was that it struggled to turn steel, but was OK on most other metals and plastics. Also, the accessories were quite pricey to buy in the UK, though reasonably priced in the USA. I also owned a Hobbymat for a while and was distinctly not impressed with it at all.

[AjohnwParticipant @ajohnw51620]

Posted by Bandersnatch on 17/10/2016 01:49:47:

Posted by Dianne Best on 16/10/2016 18:54:02:

I am in central Canada so shipping cost would be a factor.

Lee Valley sell Taig and have stores in Winnipeg, Saskatoon, Calgary and Edmonton fwiw.

I missed the in Canada comment. Late, been on a long drive and tired. Sorry about that. Suspect I am not the only one though.

Not sure what name the Hobbymat was sold under in N, America. Lathes co uk may have info on that. There are also some smaller Emco machines that should be around. Also Wabeco but the prices of those are very steep. That assumes your buying used. Wabeco can certainly be bought new but price – Ouch.

Buying new I would have thought one company over there may do what Warco do. Personally I find the accuracy spec's reassuring as it seems odd lemons do turn up and it sounds to me like you do want real precision otherwise the S' Bend would be ok.

Looking at Taig and Hobbymat I would be inclined to favour the Hobbymat. I have a Boxford which is effectively a clone of the 5" centre height South Bend. Very little wear but also like to have a much smaller lathe around. It is a problem finding something suitable. Currently that is a mini lathe but in real terms for what I want it for it's too big and takes up too much space.

John

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[Roderick JenkinsParticipant @roderickjenkins93242]

I'm afraid my experience of the Hobbymat was rather unpleasant. With its 1mm pitch leadscrew and no way to disengage the nut, winding the saddle back and forth became very tedious. Whilst this is acceptable on a tiny lathe like the Unimat 3, on a larger lathe like the Hobbymat , for me, it is too much.

Rod

[AjohnwParticipant @ajohnw51620]

Small work doesn't need the saddle moving far but fair point.

I did screw cutting with it under power. One for instance was the pitch used in screw on drill chucks. HSS too. People have also made speed reducing gear for them. Details are probably about on the web and probably in one of the mags.

Having to reverse the lathe when screw cutting is a pain. I did have one problem in this area – needing to clean up the tang on the dog clutch a couple of times. That was most likely down to power feed.

It would be useful to know what the OP wants to make. My feeling on the Unimat is that they are a bit limiting due to size. The one I had was this one

Mounted on draws. I sold it to an American who was on one of their Air Force bases over here. He mostly wanted it for plastics but I did demonstrate it turning steel and warned him that he may have problems with earth leakage trips cutting out. The motors are famed for collecting brush dust inside them. On one socket here it would trip out my PC. Ok on others. Motor thoroughly cleaned out.

The headstock bearings are easy to change but it's worth making sure all of the disc springs are there and in the right order. A big G clamp can help refitting and boiling water to allow the front bearing to come out easily. I used an oven at 100C to get the new bearing in the front rather than risk driving it in cock eyed.

John

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[Dianne BestParticipant @diannebest69516]

The "small end" of what I want/need to make is steam fittings for 1/8 scale.

The other project I have in mind is a steam engine for a 1:48 sternwheeler. I have also started an 1803 Trevithick locomotive in 1/8th scale.

[Nick anonParticipant @nickanon93441]

I can personally recommend buying a lightly used Proxxon PD230 or if you can get one a PD360. Other than that, a Compact 5 in good condition will cope with most jobs. They normally get £300, one just sold on Ebay for £410 with a very large amount of expensive accessories, so amazing Austrian built value.

Cheers, Nick.

[AjohnwParticipant @ajohnw51620]

Those are much more in Rod's interests than mine. Other people too so they should be able to comment.

John

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[IanTParticipant @iant]

Hi Dianne,

I think a Taig could handle most of that work but the large flywheel on the Trevithick might be interesting. I think it's about 7ft diameter – so at 1:8 – that would scale to about 10.5". You might need some help with that or need to devise a very cunning rotary milling set-up!

Regards,

IanT

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

Posted by Ajohnw on 16/10/2016 23:37:06:

Neil had a mini lathe of machine mart. I suspect an exchange would be entirely feasible if one of those turned out to be duff but have to ask him about taper and accuracy.

You will be very unlucky to get a mini lathe that doesn't have a well aligned spindle .As inverted-v bed lathes, I imagine they machine the v the bolt the headstock down to a jig that mimics the lathe bed to bore it, so the spindle more or less has to be in line (as long as its all kept clean).

There was an early batch that faced concave because of mis-aligned cross-slide ways, mine was one of those but that was in the last century!

I've been turning lots of parts to accurate sizes recently (gear blanks and centres to fit in some of these) and have had no problems working to very close tolerances in stainless steel and brass. It can happily take a skimming cut of under 0.01mm, but I have done the roller bearing mod.

Like any machine they should be set up properly for best results, but don't confuse setting up with 'major rebuild'.

Neil

[Enough!Participant @enough]

NDIY and IanT

Check out the link I provided to see Lee Valley's metalworking Taig offerings.

[AjohnwParticipant @ajohnw51620]

They guy that played with the tailstock and looked to have a warped bed bugs me a little Neil. He dashed into mods mentioned on the web – lapping the height of the tail stock. A thing that shouldn't need to be done.

John

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