Not a model engineer looking for mill advice

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Posted by Bandersnatch on 24/07/2018 01:56:33:

Posted by Patryk Socha on 23/07/2018 16:54:09:

Would like something quiet (neighbours) (brushless/belt drive?),

Bear in mind that most (probably all) the small machines being discussed here are gear driven and quite noisy. There are belt-drive conversions available from third parties but they're not cheap (although they are quiet).

SX2.7 is direct belt drive from Brushless motor to spindle and is very very quiet compared to my geared head X3. Two totally different machines in the sound department.

[Patryk SochaParticipant @patryksocha88647]

Posted by Bandersnatch on 24/07/2018 01:56:33:

Posted by Patryk Socha on 23/07/2018 16:54:09:

Would like something quiet (neighbours) (brushless/belt drive?),

 

Bear in mind that most (probably all) the small machines being discussed here are gear driven and quite noisy. There are belt-drive conversions available from third parties but they're not cheap (although they are quiet).

Just skimming through distributors websites shows there are a fair bit of belt driven machines available. I think you guys are putting upward pressure on manufacturers in China. It is no secret that Asian manufacturers don't really bother with testing their products, there is simply no time for that. They instead use their userbase as a testing platform. So newer models seem to be largely belt driven.

Edited By Patryk Socha on 24/07/2018 11:56:24

[Patryk SochaParticipant @patryksocha88647]

Are there any voices for different distributors? So far votes here are rather unanimous in favor of Sieg, if discard voices discouraging from a mini mill at all. But I would like to at least consider other options as part of an informed decision.

As my understanding is increasing, I think that some distributors are "modifying" stock machines from China, or improving them, before sticking to them their brand name. I am probably asking for impossible, but is there some sort of list or comparison of what changes/improvements are done by importers? For example, what are the differences between Arc Euro Trade and Axminster machines? What parts have been replaced, etc…. It would be a little bit more transparent…

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

Posted by Patryk Socha on 23/07/2018 21:14:06:

So far I was leaning towards SX2.7 (X3 a little bit too expensive). Does it still fall into X2 problems?

SX2.7 specifically addresses the three weaknesses of the X2 – rigid column replaces hinged one, brushless motor replaces brushed one, belt drive replaces gearbox.

Neil

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

Posted by Patryk Socha on 24/07/2018 12:12:47:

As my understanding is increasing, I think that some distributors are "modifying" stock machines from China, or improving them, before sticking to them their brand name. I am probably asking for impossible, but is there some sort of list or comparison of what changes/improvements are done by importers? For example, what are the differences between Arc Euro Trade and Axminster machines? What parts have been replaced, etc…. It would be a little bit more transparent…

That used to happen a bit in the early days, but these days most of the differences are in the factory.

Best to speak to/visit sellers, to discuss differences. They can be as superficial as the colour or quite fundamental to the machine's capabilities.

Machine specs can change between batches, so a fair list covering every seller would be impossible to keep accurate.

Neil

[Patryk SochaParticipant @patryksocha88647]

Posted by Neil Wyatt on 24/07/2018 12:42:51:

Best to speak to/visit sellers, to discuss differences.

Neil

Dangerous for me to do so as I could easily get overexcited and leave with big dent in my credit card from the first showroom I would walk into… Know thyself!

I barely resisted the urge this Saturday to drive to Warco's Open Day event…

[Howard LewisParticipant @howardlewis46836]

For what my advice is worth, buy a machine that appears a little larger than your immediate need. Your horizons will expand as you find the capabilities of the process, and you will then find jobs that are a little too large for your small "starter" machine.

I don't have a machine from Arc Euro, (The Mill/Drill and the Bandsaw are Warco, but that followed a bad experience with a smaller version but have had to repair and "fettle" that over the years) Having bought various items from them over the years, thoroughly recommend them. Have never had anything but prompt and good service,

Sometime, if you are travelling from M K to East Anglia, divert to Syston and see what they have on offer.

You may be pleasantly surprised by your visit, (I'll be surprised if you are not)

Howard

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Posted by Neil Wyatt on 24/07/2018 12:35:11:

Posted by Patryk Socha on 23/07/2018 21:14:06:

So far I was leaning towards SX2.7 (X3 a little bit too expensive). Does it still fall into X2 problems?

SX2.7 specifically addresses the three weaknesses of the X2 – rigid column replaces hinged one, brushless motor replaces brushed one, belt drive replaces gearbox.

Neil

The latest SX2P also addresses those issues if you don't need the slightly larger 2.7

[Patryk SochaParticipant @patryksocha88647]

Posted by Howard Lewis on 24/07/2018 13:16:37:

For what my advice is worth, buy a machine that appears a little larger than your immediate need. Your horizons will expand as you find the capabilities of the process, and you will then find jobs that are a little too large for your small "starter" machine.

That is true, and reason I acctualy skiping in my search all the smalles machines

Posted by Howard Lewis on 24/07/2018 13:16:37:

Sometime, if you are travelling from M K to East Anglia, divert to Syston and see what they have on offer.

You may be pleasantly surprised by your visit, (I'll be surprised if you are not)

Does Arc Trade has showroom available?

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Yes

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Far Eastern hobby lathes aren't quite like cars where – perhaps – the marque gives a broad hint of what you'll get and mass sales make reliable reliability figures available.

Hobby machines, mills and lathes, tend to be variants of similar designs. The designs are competently modern rather than outstanding. Although extra features & improvements are 'nice to have', even a basic machine will perform. More important than the machine is learning to drive it. Don't get hung up on details unless you know they matter to you.

As Neil says, modification of machines after delivery to the UK is unlikely. Our labour costs are far higher than in China; if work is going to be done on a machine, it's best done in the factory.

Decoding from the ads exactly what today's best buy is may not be possible, nor helpful. In any case the equipment tends to be similar. The exception is that new machines are currently appearing with brushless dc motors. Definitely worth having, but I manage perfectly well without one!

The advantage of buying from a British distributor is consumer protection and the distributors reputation. Occasionally people are dissatisfied with new machines. I've had no trouble with Warco; ArcEuro get a good press; Axminister are more expensive but you get an extended warranty; look up Chester for yourself; Machine Mart I find expensive; others I have no knowledge either way. Optimum claim German engineering standards applied to Chinese kit; their machines are markedly more expensive, and there are hints you don't get much improvement for your money.

Buying direct from the Far East or a very cheap local source is more dangerous. If a self-imported machine is faulty, you might have trouble getting satisfaction. Very cheap machines may be factory seconds – rejects not good enough for a Western distributor.

Far eastern machines aren't perfect but faults seem more likely to be fit and finish rather than fundamental these days. My Warco machines all worked straight out of the box but all benefited from minor fettling. Judging by my equipment, parts are machine made with economy rather than good looks in mind. The parts were assembled quickly, not always as well as I would have done myself, with minor problems caused by the likes of burrs, slight misalignments and loose bolts. On my milling machine, the only fault was a bump on the casting causing the Z DRO to stick and jump mid-range. Removing the DRO, filing the bump off and refitting took about ten minutes.

I had a bad experience buying second-hand early on, and I agonised a bit before buying new, mainly because internet posts circa 1998 don't care much for tooling unless it was made in the West. With hindsight it was a mistake to dither. Now I've owned and used Chinese machines for a few years, I've a much better idea what to look for. It would have been worth the money just to learn that. As it happens, the machines do all I need and I'm unlikely to change.

Important to understand your own psychology. At the end of the day, you have to be comfortable with the tool. Some are happy to get results from whatever they have, others are thoroughly upset and irritated by minor imperfections. If you're in the latter camp, either spend serious money on a new industrial machine, or start searching for a good second-hand one. As you've spotted small ex-industrial milling machines are in short supply, and not always in good condition. But you might get lucky – it's not impossible.

Dave

[Ketan SwaliParticipant @ketanswali79440]

Hi Patryk,

Having read your posts, I believe that you have already a good idea in your mind for what you want, based on your link. The machine looks similar to Warco WM16B. So, I would suggest that you explore that route, especially if your intended use is business related (regardless or how many hours less or more, you intend to use). With exception of SX3 – for which we provide 1 year warranty – to include light industrial use, we do not give warranty for any other SIEG machines, if sold to businesses, or for business purpose. As far as ARC is concerned, all hobby machines are correctly rated for hobby use only.

You state: "Just skimming through distributors websites shows there are a fair bit of belt driven machines available. I think you guys are putting upward pressure on manufacturers in China. It is no secret that Asian manufacturers don't really bother with testing their products, there is simply no time for that. They instead use their userbase as a testing platform. So newer models seem to be largely belt driven."

ARC Reply: Your understanding is a little wrong. SIEG have a continuous program of developing new products. Every time they have developed something new, it has been an up and down struggle to place such products on the market, for example the brushless – belt drive, especially as they cost more to develop properly, and the related components are more expensive than the traditional gear drive with DC brushed motors. Before placing on the market, the machines are tested, and they go through testing houses – SGS (as an example), to meet certain standards. Still, there are times when they have got it wrong. This is where customer and distributor feedback has come into play to make corrections or improvements which they consider necessary. There are certain points which they will simply decline to consider, especially if they are specific 'user related' issues. Everyone has some specific idea for their specific needs, and there is no machine which will tick all boxes for every user.

For the record, SIEG brought out brushless motor – with belt drive around five years before any of its competitors. It has taken a long time for the competitors to get their version of the brushless belt drive combination right, because the main issue has been related to programming of the torque across the full speed range. If this is fine or not, tested or not, put through testing houses or not, is something you would need to ask them. I for one fail to agree with their figures for wattage, because as far as I am concerned, they state input power, rather than output power. SIEG machines sold under the SIEG branding state output power. Output power is usually lower than input power, but marketing is what sells machines!

HISTORY: As SIEG started having some success with their brushless motor – belt drive combination, end users started asking their suppliers for the same. Hence the slow start and increase in belt drive offering. Regardless, there have been belt drive machines of various ilk in place long before the current offering, as well as various conversions. This in no way means that the geared heads are any less in quality.

With geared heads, many have nylon gears – which are there as a fail safe sacrificial in case of 'user related issues'. However, if and when they break, they become more difficult to replace. in some cases, users blame the machine rather than their own actions resulting in damage. This lack of understanding by new entrants to the hobby results in some negative feedback for geared head machines. So, sometimes there is an automatic presumption that belt drive is better.

You state: For example, what are the differences between Arc Euro Trade and Axminster machines? What parts have been replaced, etc…. It would be a little bit more transparent…

ARC Reply: Apart from the colour, nothing mechanical or electrical. ARC have been selling SIEG machines in original SIEG colour and branding for five to six years longer than Axminster. Axminster give a three year warranty (make note of conditions), ARC gives a one year warranty. Axminster sell a bigger range of SIEG machines than ARC. Parts: ARC carries a good range of spares link.

ARC only buys mills and lathes from SIEG, mainly because we just have to deal with one set of gremlins, we have an 18 year working relationship with them, there is mutual understanding and trust between us, and sometime we have some serious disagreements – just like any marriage. I will further stick my neck out and say that OPTIMUM, and SIEG spend a lot of time and money on R&D and going through testing houses to meet various compliance obligations. I know from experience that most others are copies, with varying levels of build quality, be they good, bad or ugly, wrongly piggy backing on SIEGs and OPTIMUMs compliance paperwork to avoid paying such costs. the link you gave, along with Warco, and any other similar offering is a great example of piggybacking on OPTIMUM offering. At the end of the day, that may or may not be of relevance to the end user/buyer, depending on a whole bunch of factors unique to the buyer.

The best suggestion I can give is to proceed down the link/Warco exploration route you gave, rather than the SIEG route, as our experience suggests that you will probably be happy with the decision which you have already made in your own mind, and good luck.

Ketan at ARC.

 

Edited By Ketan Swali on 24/07/2018 14:59:21

[Patryk SochaParticipant @patryksocha88647]

WOW, a lot of meat to chew on in the last posts!

@Ketan Swali To some extent you are right. The machine, like the one from my link, is somewhat desirable because at the beginning of my fascination with milling machines I have seen YouTube video of a comparison between Precision Mathews PM-25MV and some Grizzly machine. Knowing absolutely nothing at that time, I have assumed that PM is proper, western build machine, and I was disappointed that it was not available in UK. So it may be a case that I give slight subjective preference to this kind of shape/body. But I am no fool (or not a big one), and I like to base my decisions on rather more objective arguments. This is why I came here and asked people I consider to be much more knowledgeable than I am to help me sort out those arguments before I will commit. However, I am also not a person which will buy something advised by an expert without question. It is probably a safe bet, but I like to ask "Why?" I think I have already made a massive progress since OP, but have made no decisions yet. So don't give up on me, but I have a feeling that you are using on me some sort of reversed psychology

Edited By Patryk Socha on 24/07/2018 15:59:05

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

PM machines are all from the Far East, No more western engineered than any of the others, just a bright blue paint job.

[Patryk SochaParticipant @patryksocha88647]

Posted by JasonB on 24/07/2018 16:05:36:

PM machines are all from the Far East, No more western engineered than any of the others, just a bright blue paint job.

Yes, I do know this… Now. Thanks to this thread

[Ketan SwaliParticipant @ketanswali79440]

Posted by Patryk Socha on 24/07/2018 15:51:17:

So don't give up on me, but I have a feeling that you are using on me some sort of reversed psychology

Edited By Patryk Socha on 24/07/2018 15:59:05

Patryk,

No reversed psychology. As you are unaware of our history, I can assure you that there are people on and off this forum, who ARC have directed to other dealers. We regularly turn away prospective buyers/users, schools/collages, businesses who want to buy machines, if we feel that it will be better for them to pursue a different direction, and we say this with the greatest of respect to you and all concerned.

From threads like this, email/phone correspondence, face to face discussions with prospective customers over the past 18 odd years, our experience has shown that it is better to have this conversation pre-purchase. If there is a close relationship with 'a similar product' with a 'similar performance', the buyer is always looking to justify his original purchase 'thought' decision which he has made in his mind. This thought doesn't really go away 'until the itch is scratched'. The conversation turns into a yes but/no but, and he said this, but so and so said that, price, all to justify the mental decision which has already been made about 'the model' he wishes to buy.

On at least two occasions (I think) you wanted to know/show some comparisons with Warco and the link Bristol guy. Warco has good long standing history…. much longer than any of us in the trade … I think. Your link – Bristol guy has good electrical history (I think), and probably good price, but limited trading and compliance history. So really, your mind was already made up about 'the model' (and I say this in a good way). It is no better or worse mechanically than a machine of similar size – subject to assembly/electronics quality/source/compliance. You should choose one of them, or SPG and Amadeal who have similar near identical machines, probably from clone assembly operations based on OPTIMUM model. You need to satisfy yourself about whose marketing language, help, talk you appreciate

Ketan at ARC.

[Patryk SochaParticipant @patryksocha88647]

Posted by Ketan Swali on 24/07/2018 17:01:07:

So really, your mind was already made up about 'the model' (and I say this in a good way). It is no better or worse mechanically than a machine of similar size – subject to assembly/electronics quality/source/compliance. You should choose one of them, or SPG and Amadeal who have similar near identical machines, probably from clone assembly operations based on OPTIMUM model. You need to satisfy yourself about whose marketing language, help, talk you appreciate

Ketan at ARC.

Yeah, buying from Bristol is probably as good as buying from China directly. I think it would be like a buying £1200 lottery ticket. If I would be more experienced I could probably work on the machine, but being as green as I am, I will need support and warranty, etc.

 

Thank you. I appreciate honesty… I still would argue that I am fairly unbiased (if possible). However, I find your findings in "purchase psychology" quite true . In general. I am different

Edited By Patryk Socha on 24/07/2018 17:33:00

[Trevor Drabble 1Participant @trevordrabble1]

Patryk , Just to throw a curved ball into the mix and to give you food for thought , Axminster Power Tools sell similar machines to Arc plus have a usefu page of information to help with milling machine selection . Also , Quilstar near Nottingham usually have a good selection of used , value for money machines available . No connection with either other than as a previously satisfied customer . Trevor.

[Patryk SochaParticipant @patryksocha88647]

Posted by Trevor Drabble on 24/07/2018 18:17:33:

Patryk , Just to throw a curved ball into the mix and to give you food for thought , Axminster Power Tools sell similar machines to Arc plus have a usefu page of information to help with milling machine selection . Also , Quilstar near Nottingham usually have a good selection of used , value for money machines available . No connection with either other than as a previously satisfied customer . Trevor.

Quillstar – interesting. Most of the machines are waaaay over my skills/budget/load bearing capabilities. But it is worth keeping an eye on it. Thank you

 

Edited By Patryk Socha on 24/07/2018 18:37:25

[MuzzerParticipant @muzzer]

Posted by Trevor Drabble on 24/07/2018 18:17:33:

Patryk , Just to throw a curved ball into the mix and to give you food for thought.

Aaaaah – my brain is spinning. Three BS Bingo expressions in one sentence – nice going!

[Patryk SochaParticipant @patryksocha88647]

…clone assembly operations based on OPTIMUM model….

 

 

are OPTIMUM machines imported to UK ?

Edited By Patryk Socha on 24/07/2018 19:44:09

[peak4Participant @peak4]

Patryk, From a quick speed read of this thread, no-one seems to have mentioned second hand machines.
Dealers may well charge premium prices, having their profits and shareholders to consider, but private buyers may be more realistic. Some may well have good machines up for sale due to up/downsizing.

Tony Griffith's web site http://www.lathes.co.uk whist providing a huge amount of reference material, also has a classifieds section

A quick peruse on there might be to your advantage, as I've just spotted a Myford VM-E for a similar price to the Bristol machine. If I didn't already have an ex-university Centec 2B, I'd be on my way to Wales as soon as I'd checked it is still for sale.

Also keep an eye on HomeWokshop

Good luck with your purchase and keep asking questions.

All the best

Bill

[Ketan SwaliParticipant @ketanswali79440]

Posted by Patryk Socha on 24/07/2018 19:41:27:

…clone assembly operations based on OPTIMUM model….

 

 

are OPTIMUM machines imported to UK ?

Edited By Patryk Socha on 24/07/2018 19:44:09

Yes – google search shows: Excel Machine Tools, Techsoft.

OPTIMUMs generally have more sales in Europe, outside the U.K… In Europe, as Optimum is a 'German manufacturer', there is preference on their branding. Optimum makes these machines under a joint venture agreement in China. I spoke to their Chinese joint venture partner about ten years ago. In a phone conversation, introduced myself as a SIEG dealer, to be met with the response 'I do not consider SIEG to be a real machine manufacturer. If you want real machines, we can talk', and that was the end of that conversation

Every time a SIEG dealer gets pissed off with SIEG, they move over to OPTIMUM… current examples: HAFCO – Australia, Shamskin – Sweden… I understand that if one becomes an OPTIMUM dealer, they do not want you to sell machines made by SIEG.

ARC is happy to carry on with SIEG.

Ketan at ARC

 

Edited By Ketan Swali on 24/07/2018 21:30:36

[Ian Skeldon 2Participant @ianskeldon2]

Firstly Martin, thank you for your kind comments in an earlier post, I am always happy to help where I can.

Patryk, I think you have somewhat under estimated the response to your original question. You clearly state that you have little or no experience and ask for advice. The advice streams in with a large majority of that indicating that a seig would be a good place to start, you seem determined to ignore the advice you asked for so what exactly do you want, the cheapest out there on the internet? Just some particular colour scheme? A second hand one that you will not have the skills to check over properly? Something that you can buy and leave enough money to buy cutting tools and a good quality vice and/or clamping set?

I have no connections with any of the suppliers listed or mentioned within this thread, but I know which way I would go after asking the contributors for help.

[Patryk SochaParticipant @patryksocha88647]

Posted by Ketan Swali on 24/07/2018 21:28:35:

….In a phone conversation, introduced myself as a SIEG dealer, to be met with the response 'I do not consider SIEG to be a real machine manufacturer. If you want real machines, we can talk', and that was the end of that conversation

WOW! That is not really professional approach!

Anyway. I was checking previously companies you have provided and Excel is not offering their mills, and Techsoft doesn't have many mills in my price range sadly… After checking Optimum website I think their machines a slightly too expensive for a person like me…

Posted by peak4 on 24/07/2018 21:05:39:

A quick peruse on there might be to your advantage, as I've just spotted a Myford VM-E for a similar price to the Bristol machine. If I didn't already have an ex-university Centec 2B, I'd be on my way to Wales as soon as I'd checked it is still for sale.

This looks very interesting, lots of tools and accessories… But I have no knowledge of these machines. Literally, I have seen Myford machines on eBay before and I had no idea is this something worth pursuing. I have never heard about them before (I am not from this country originally). If something is not right, I would be in the cold water. Out of curiosity, does anybody have rough idea how much such Myford VM-E might be weighing?

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