New Mill – Starter Tooling

[Ron LadenParticipant @ronladen17547]

I have a 25mm end mill from ARC,s new range, I think 25mm about ideal for a small mill but their shell mill range goes up to 80mm.

I have a pair of coated and a pair of uncoated inserts. I haven't tried it on steel yet but a quick test on some 6082 was very good, you can really remove some material and the surface finish even with heavy cuts is very good quite impressed with it.

The tool quality is excellent, can't fault it and the price is very good considering the quality.

No connection with ARC other than a very satisfied customer.

 

Edited By Ron Laden on 26/12/2019 06:56:53

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

You can get a nice shade of blue steel swarf with those that even Andrew would be happy with.

Once MEW289 is available digitally there is a thread with some video and finished on various materials that I''ll bump up so it's easier to find, link is also in the test review.

Edited By JasonB on 26/12/2019 20:14:08

[Ron LadenParticipant @ronladen17547]

Thanks Jason, looking forward to MEW289.

Just tried the coated inserts on some EN8, like the alu inserts very good indeed.

[Anonymous]

Posted by JasonB on 26/12/2019 07:01:40:

You can get a nice shade of blue steel swarf with those that even Andrew would be happy with.

I have a new method for assessing swarf temperature; it's called the oh beep test. If a bit of swarf gets on your hand and you say oh beep then the swarf is hot enough and you're making the cutter work for it's living.

The shell mills from Arc look good and are very reasonably priced. Following the positive review by Jason I intend to get a couple, and R8 and ISO40 arbors, so I can use them on all three milling machines.

Andrew

[Ketan SwaliParticipant @ketanswali79440]

Posted by Andrew Johnston on 26/12/2019 11:59:00:

Posted by JasonB on 26/12/2019 07:01:40:

You can get a nice shade of blue steel swarf with those that even Andrew would be happy with.

I have a new method for assessing swarf temperature; it's called the oh beep test. If a bit of swarf gets on your hand and you say oh beep then the swarf is hot enough and you're making the cutter work for it's living.

I know the feeling Andrew… I was going through the same when I was testing them on several small and large machines.

Normally, members of my team stand well back when I do these tests, especially as I have your earlier comments in mind about how you like to run them. It got even more funny when first the visiting SIEG engineer saw what I was doing, moved back him selve, and making sure his G.M. also moved back whilst explaining to the G.M. that he thought I was stupid and crazy and how this could kill the SX3.5DZP which I was testing at the time. It got even more funny (not), when I saw the SIEG G.M. go in deeper than I did, and we all moved back… until it stalled and dug in. Their engineer was less than happy with both of us.

Although the process was good to understand the limitations of a machine, 'abusing' any machine is not something I would recommend for people to do.

Ketan at ARC.

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Well you were testing them on November the 5th

[Ron LadenParticipant @ronladen17547]

A few months ago I up-sized from the mini lathe to a 9 x 20 and I am about to do the same with the mill and move up from the SX2P to the SX3. I have been looking at the SX3 for some time and from what I,ve seen and read it is generally considered a good mill by those that have them.

Size is a serious consideration for me as my shop is quite small so it has to be a bench top mill and I cant afford to just sit it anywhere and lose a lot of bench space. The lathe will have to move plus the bench where the mill will sit will need beefing up as the SX3 is 3 times the weight of the SX2.

I spoke with Ian at ARC today and they have stock, should be placing an order with him on Wednesday when he,s back in the office. If the mill is as good as the SX2 has been I will be well pleased it has been 100% reliable, never let me down and done everything I have asked of it. The reason for the change is size, I just feel its time for a machine with more capacity.

[Ron LadenParticipant @ronladen17547]

I now have the square and hex Stevenson blocks plus the mill and lathe chucks for my set of ER25 collects. Is there any other useful mounts/fittings I am missing for the collets.

Ron

Edited By Ron Laden on 24/05/2020 08:54:52

Edited By Ron Laden on 24/05/2020 08:55:15

[VicParticipant @vic]

I would have said a Spin Indexer but it’s ER32.

Spindexer

I chose ER32 for my lathe initially as the maximum bore is only 20mm. Luckily there are lots of other stuff that size so I’ve bought ER32 chucks for my Mill and WW lathe, square and hex collet blocks and the spin indexer. Although expensive I’ve also found over size ER32 collets so the maximum I can grip is now 25mm.

[Martin ConnellyParticipant @martinconnelly55370]

Morse taper for lathe tailstock? Possibly not so necessary with ER25 but with ER32 going up to 20mm they can be used to hold endmills larger than some 3 jaw drill chucks will cope with, they are good for simple counterboring rather than get a boring bar out. They also hold endmills more securely than drill chucks as endmills have harder shanks than drills.

If you have a vertical rotary table with an attached chuck you can hold the Stevenson's blocks in it. If you don't have one then a Stevenson's spin indexer is useful. However this comes with a 5C collet socket and an ER32 adaptor and nut. To use this with your ER25 you would get one ER32 collet such as 16-15mm and an ER25 collet holder on a 16mm parallel shank. There is a potential for a lot of tolerance build up with this setup but they are just examples of other ER25 mounts as requested.

Martin C

Vic beat me to it when I was typing!

Edited By Martin Connelly on 24/05/2020 10:33:25

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

You can get 5C to ER25 adaptors that would allow a spindexer to take Er25 without too much overhang.

[VicParticipant @vic]

You make a good point Martin. I bought a MT2 ER32 chuck for my WW lathe but never thought of using it in the tailstock of my MW lathe. It is threaded M10 though so not sure if it will self eject? I do have one of those screw in tangs but it’s M12 to suit the stuff for my mill. Anyone know where I can get an M10 screw in Tang for not much folding?

Edit: I think I can make a tang from a suitable bolt. 

Edited By Vic on 24/05/2020 11:16:18

[Martin ConnellyParticipant @martinconnelly55370]

Ron, I have just put a bit of stud in one of my morse tapers to make it eject from the tailstock (I had to strip the tailstock to remove it the first time I put it in not realising it was too short to eject).

Martin C

The tang shape is not needed in tailstocks by the way.

Edited By Martin Connelly on 24/05/2020 11:08:48

[VicParticipant @vic]

Thanks Martin, we crossed in the ether again!

[AdrianRParticipant @adrianr18614]

Posted by Vic on 24/05/2020 10:21:46:

I would have said a Spin Indexer but it’s ER32.

Spindexer

I chose ER32 for my lathe initially as the maximum bore is only 20mm. Luckily there are lots of other stuff that size so I’ve bought ER32 chucks for my Mill and WW lathe, square and hex collet blocks and the spin indexer. Although expensive I’ve also found over size ER32 collets so the maximum I can grip is now 25mm.

Oh dear, I think I need to get new glasses, I read that link as Spandex. Now that would be a different mill accessory. Sure would get the neighbours talking as you stroll out to the workshop in your best Glam Rock outfit.

Adrian

[Martin ConnellyParticipant @martinconnelly55370]

Should have mentioned that an ER32 morse taper in the tailstock is good for holding Rotabroach cutters with a 19mm shank. Saves a lot of drilling and boring if you have a few sizes and the centre slug is useful as scraps if required for the odd job.

Martin C

[Ron LadenParticipant @ronladen17547]

Thanks guys thats helpful.

What is the difference between 5C and ER collets, I can see that they run to larger sizes and that they have an int and ext drawbar threads. Plus there is tooling available for 5C like the indexing head and collet fixture etc, why is that tooling not available for ER collets or maybe it is..?

Ron

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

5C has been around for a long time as a workholding collet mainly for use in the lathe so fixtures have had a long time to be developed for them, ER is not really used in industry for work holding it is just the ME user likes to get their monies worth and only pay for one set of collets.

The 5C uses the external thread for a draw tube, the inside one is to fit a back stop.

I think people who already have 5C will just buy a 5C-ER adaptor to use the other tooling and there is not a large enough market to make ER specific especially if you have to stock 25, 32 and 40.

Now if somebody were to come up with a 5C lathe chuck with externally threaded nose so you could slip in an adaptor sleeve and use ER and a custom nut with minimal extra overhang much like the Stvenson indexer then I want my share of the royalties

Edited By JasonB on 25/05/2020 08:04:20

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by Ron Laden on 25/05/2020 07:48:45:

[…]

What is the difference between 5C and ER collets, […]

.

Just adding emphasis to Jason’s advice …

5C collets are ‘single size’ in the same way as horological collets

MichaelG.

.

Edit: Wilipedia has a good summary

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collet#5C_collets

Edited By Michael Gilligan on 25/05/2020 08:11:02

[EmgeeParticipant @emgee]

Being single size 5C collets are much less versatile than ER collets but were industry standard for many years and still provide good service.

Emgee

[Ron LadenParticipant @ronladen17547]

Thanks for the explanation guys.

Ron

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Although "one size" it only becomes a problem if you don't have the right size 5C, most hobby users would have 1/32" or maybe 1/64th sets or metric in 1mm increments but they are made in just about any size you want eg 0.001" imperial and 0.1mm metric so there shoud be a size to suit anything plus square, rectangle and hex which you can't get in ER so are more versatile in some ways than others and you always have the emergency ones that can be machined up as specials. They are also better for short work.

The main advantage of ER for the hobby user is each collet covers a range of sizes

[Ron LadenParticipant @ronladen17547]

Thanks for that Jason,

I had a thought re been able to use my ER25 collets on the R/T. Martin suggested it been possible to use a Stevenson block if I had a chuck for the R/T which I do. The only problem is whilst the table is very good the chuck isnt, its a 80mm centering 4 jaw that leaves a bit to be desired. Plus the chuck with its backing plate and then the block the face of the collet nut would be 130mm out from the table face. However the table has a MT2 centre hole so if I got a ER25 MT2 mill chuck I could use it on the R/T plus it would also fit the lathe tailstock should I ever need to.

Unless I,m missing something that sounds like a plan to me.

Ron

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

That is one option the other is a similar thing to your lathe ER chuck but with 4 holes in the backplate to match the 4 slots in the R/T, which is what I have but ER32.

[Ron LadenParticipant @ronladen17547]

I did look at the lathe chucks Jason and to be honest that would be my preferred option, it was only the fact that the mill chuck in MT2 would also fit the lathe. I guess the question is how often would the collets be used on the lathe and how useful is it, maybe it isnt.

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