New machines

[TakeawayParticipant @takeaway]

I have read reports in newspapers recently that Chinese authorities are the source of cyber attacks on us in the West. I read again today that Chinese authorities are almost certainly behind the jamming of BBC World Services in their country.>>

I was contemplating buying a new WARCO or similar, lathe and milling machine in the not to distant future but knowing this kit is manufactured in lace w:st="on">Chinalace> has made me uncomfortable about any such purchase from a country which seems to be displaying a degree of hostility to the Western world.>>

Given that most of the affordable new gear available these days to hobbyists IS Chinese then it seems the only alternative is to buy second hand and non chinese!>>

I have not completely made my mind up yet but non chinese / second hand Myford etc. may be the way I go.>>

Even there I'd feel a bit guilty, like an Ebay vulture circling over the dead meat of a Super 7.>>

Stuart>>

 

Edited By Diane Carney on 27/02/2013 12:39:08

[TakeawayParticipant @takeaway]

Chinese puzzle

[David Clark 13Participant @davidclark13]

Hi Stuart

I would not worry about the manual Chinese mills.

I expect it is only the CNC ones that are programmed to attack.

regards David

[steamdaveParticipant @steamdave]

I bought a new West European milling machine a couple of years ago. It was about three times the cost of a Far East equivalent, but I doubt that it is anywhere near three times as good. In fact I would not be quick to recommend this particular make.

Dave
The Emerald Isle

[clivelParticipant @clivel]

No doubt China has made unwelcome in-roads into all industries. From the shoes on your feet to the food on your table the West has capitulated – consumers have become addicted to cheap and shoddy products.

The only value left in Western corporations are the well know brand names slapped onto the same cheap Chinese products carried by everyone else, brand names that are no longer a hallmark of quality and destined to soon lose their premium.

Personally I think that we have reached the point of no return, too many Western industries have been decimated never to return, so for better or for worse it will be a Chinese world.

Yet irrespective of one's opinion on the subject, it is no excuse for the OP to refer to the Chinese as "chink" a term that is considered extremely derogatory in many circles.

[Ian BalesParticipant @ianbales66163]

Unfortunately there is very little manufacturing of quality left in this country. I had an unfortunate experience when I bought a M&W digital depth mic thinking it was still made in the UK. I was teethed on M&W measuring gear as an apprentice in the early 70s and even though some of it was older than me worked splendidly.

The digital mic, which was not cheap had squidgy buttons on it and the on/off button needed repeated mashing to make it work. I returned it for a refund and bought a Mitutoyo which is still quality.

After a bit of research I discovered that they state that their manufacturing is now based in this country and China. I found an identical depth mic, even down to the misaligned foam cutouts in the box, for a quarter of the price with a different badge on it, coincidence or premium price for a badge?

[magpieParticipant @magpie]

It was on the north west news recently, a Brit company is about to build a very large industrial complex on the Wirral to make various car components, including wheels.They have realised, that by the time you factor in the cost of transporting all the parts we import at the moment, it will now be economically viable to make them here. I would think this trend will continue when the Chinese start to demand higher and higher wages in the same way the Japanese did. Japanese stuff was also rubbish just after the war, but is now regarded as world standard. As our current government wants to reduce the workforce to very near slave labour, these changes should happen sooner rather than later.

Cheers Derek.

[Ady1Participant @ady1]

In the 1960s we built Concorde by hand

Now we build bugger all

 

Even LTI, the Black Taxi firm has managed to go belly up in the last year

Britain has some of the worst managers on the planet

The workforce don't help much either, unless there's a world war

Even the bin men won't collect your bins if the lid is open by two inches

 

Edited By Ady1 on 27/02/2013 08:28:35(grumpy oldguy)

Even the Italians have managed to keep their car industry going and they were as bad or worse than our own in the 1980s

How did Alfa Romeo survive????

They rusted faster than falling rocks and you couldn't leave town in case it broke down

Edited By Ady1 on 27/02/2013 08:43:52

[jim’Participant @jim11037]

I work for a company making areospace fittings, they have a company in China, i think the plan is to keep the UK company open as a "shop front", then just do all the work in China.

A few companies i know of operate this way, "global" is how they like to describe it.

"outsource the work", "utilise our global capacity", some of the crap i have to hear every day.

I really do think that the pround engineering nation of ours is well and truely screwed

[Keith Wardill 1Participant @keithwardill1]

Not sure I would agree that Britain has the worst managers in the world – after all, it is not uncommon to see claims that Britain has some of the most innovative ideas, but can’t put them into practise. It is very hard to believe that only the ‘inventors’ know what they are doing, but everyone else is dumb.

It seems to me that the difference is that inventors often work alone – responsible to no-one but themselves, whilst ongoing development is invariably due, eventually, to a group of people. Now retired after a lifetime with many reputable companies in Europe, I would say the biggest handicap Britain has is its reliance on commitees – tryng to please everyone all the time, and at the same time complying with idiotic regulations. Trying to complete projects on time successfully and within budget used to be the bane of my life when working with ‘project teams’, but on the very few occasions it was possible to do the job on ones own initiative, it was easy to reach all the targets (another nonsense modern buzzword).

Its easy to say single managers (dictators) are unaccountable, but in modern business this is also demonstrably untrue – all managers have to account to someone (finance, shareholders, a CEO), and if they don’t do their job, they lose it. I have seen some very good managers lose their positions simply because they carried the can for a ‘team’ which was more concerned with covering their own a**ses and looking good, rather than getting the job done.

Adys comment about Italian cars is interesting, and true. What is remarkable is that the Italian motor industry turned itself around, and now produces decent cars. What did the now non-existant native British car industry do? – got rid of all its famous names, merged several times into an enormous uncontrolable entity, and produced abortions like the Rustin’ Metros and Marinas, finally falling apart, and letting the Germans and the Chinese pick up the assets (I believe a Chinese company bought the rights to MG for one pound). How many Chinese assets has Britain bought?

Edited By wotsit on 27/02/2013 10:14:23

[Mike ClarkeParticipant @mikeclarke87958]

As for machines, I would buy used – some beauties out there. The best part of buying used is they often come (if you avoid the trade) really well equipped with accessories. There's a few places to keep your eyes on, avoid eBay: Home Workshop where you could even place a wanted ad, Lathes.co.uk and forums with a classifieds section such as 7 1/4 gauge society. I've nothing against Chinese machines, people seem to be delighted with them as a general rule.

The British Leyland era is indeed sad. I've worked on a late V12 E-type – and BL even had their grubby little hands all over that. A very sad period, it brings tears to the eyes. If anyone is interested, there is a brilliant series on Metro development here:

How on earth the cars came out so bad (an MG Metro was my first car :/ ) after all this investment and experience I have no idea, sure there was plenty of wastage, but there was no excuse for the horrors they turned out.

[Ian S CParticipant @iansc]

We don't know, but the Chinese machine manufacturers might read this web site to see how their machines are accepted, if they don't, maybe they should. Same goes for machinery from any other source. Ian S C

[colin hawesParticipant @colinhawes85982]

Our manufacturing industries declined over a long period because more quick money could be made from financial deals ,Probably we would have saved our manufacturing industries if various inventions such as hovercraft, television, computers etc. had seen long term investment in Great Britain. Cheap imported machinery may still seem a good buy for amateur use if it is accepted that some additional effort is needed to make them reach a fair standard. Colin

[Tony JeffreeParticipant @tonyjeffree56510]

Posted by Stuart Chesher on 26/02/2013 20:29:58:

I have read reports in newspapers recently that Chinese authorities are the source of cyber attacks on us in the West. I read again today that Chinese authorities are almost certainly behind the jamming of BBC World Services in their country.>>

<<Offensive text snipped>>

Stuart –

Firstly, whatever you may think of the Chinese, there's no excuse for referring to them with a derogatory name. I'm surprised the moderators haven't instantly banned you for that – if I was a mod in this forum I certainly would have.

Secondly, you'd better not get too precious about the ethics of countries you buy stuff from – if you take any notice of the news, you will have spotted that the west (including the whiter-than-white Brits of course) aren't averse to perpetrating their own dirty tricks in the interests of furthering their "foreign policy". So if you are getting picky about buying Chinese goods, then you'd better stop buying anything at all, because its country of origin is equally suspect from an ethical point of view. Go mine some iron ore, and start from first principles, is your only solution.

Thirdly, with no source of decent UK-made iron these days, with the possible exception of niche manufacturers like Cowells, you have little alternative but to buy machines of Asian origin, so get over it.

Regards,

Tony

 

Edited By Tony Jeffree on 27/02/2013 11:46:06

[KWILParticipant @kwil]

It should have not escaped notice that the worst period of UK car "manufacturing" was when some grubby little governmant and their cohorts had their hands on the tiller.

[Gray62Participant @gray62]

Moderator!, thsi post should be removed or at least censored so that offensive references are removed.

I find this kind of derogation and blatent racial discrimination extremely distasteful and totally unncessary.

Whatever the political or racial views of the OP, these should not be allowed into a forum such as this. There are numerous contributors of asian origin who I am sure would find this kind of referencing offensive!!

CB

[Ady1Participant @ady1]

there is a brilliant series on Metro development here:

How on earth the cars came out so bad (an MG Metro was my first car :/ ) after all this investment and experience I have no idea, sure there was plenty of wastage, but there was no excuse for the horrors they turned out

——-

Great link, Makes me cringe to watch it tho

I had a VW Polo mk1 898 around that time and they were almost indestructible

[S.D.L.Participant @s-d-l]

Posted by KWIL on 27/02/2013 11:53:22:

It should have not escaped notice that the worst period of UK car "manufacturing" was when some grubby little governmant and their cohorts had their hands on the tiller.

Presumably after they had gone bust.

Steve Larner

[Diane CarneyModerator @dianecarney30678]

Thread moderated. (Thank you to my informant.)

Do not use racist terms in posts or disciplinary action will be taken.

Diane

[Keith Wardill 1Participant @keithwardill1]

Interesting video on the Metro – but prepared by BLHeritage, so not really objective (e.g comment about 'huge space inside for its size' – so is a matchbox). However, my point was not about design innovation – Brits have shown they can do that under pressure – the issue seems to lie in the realization of the ideas. As the Metro video shows, the ideas were there, but the car itself (Like many others – Allegro, Marina) was useless – I remember tinfoil on chocalate bars that was thicker than the metal used on most of the BL range of that era.

As per Mike Clarkes comment. many years ago I owned one of the early rare 'flat-floor' E-types – priceless nowadays, but they rusted faster than you could polish them – beautiful design, lousy realization.

I think Tony Jaffee has it right – the chinese stuff is here to stay, and for many people it is the only way to get into their hobby. I know I could not have done it without my chinese lathe and miller, albeit that they are much modified to perform as I want. I simply could not afford the price of European-made machines, whereas I could afford the chinese stuff, and pay for improvements over time. It should also be noted that many companies nowadays don't just push the chinese products onto the market without some preparation, and I know some companies do contract with the chinese to improve the machines. There is also another side – the Chinese need to learn what is acceptable to the market, much as the Japanese and Taiwanese did in years gone by. I believe the time will come when the Chinese stuff is as good as any other.

Perhaps also we should consider has already been done – look at the lack of machines available in the 1950 – yet people like LBSC produced original work. The Gingery machines are another example – what would those early masters have done with a Myford? Is the limiting factor not the machine, but the operator?

Edited By wotsit on 27/02/2013 13:31:18

[Bob PerkinsParticipant @bobperkins67044]

We are all guilty of being happy to buy goods being manufactured by children in some cases, being paid a dollar a day or less in the past. This may have been in some cases of ignorance of the practices, or perhaps blind eyes may have been turned. We all have a choice what we buy and how much we want to pay for it. Things may shift as workers in these areas are now not happy for the dollar a day pay check and there is more awareness, and it will become more econominally viable to manufacture closer to the point of use than transport.

I fear that until somebody finds some real horse in the horse power rated motors nothing will change.

Is that why they have changed the motor rating to watts?

I'll keep looking out for the fair price macine tools to go with the workshop cup of coffee.

Bob P..

[BazyleParticipant @bazyle]

Foreigners were happy enough to buy manufactured goods from the peasants in our mills and mines in the 19th century. It is just the cycle of progress.
India and then Africa will industrialise and take their turn. By then all our resources will have gone and the few actually prepared to work in our overcrowded corner will take whatever pay is offered to keep alive.

[Cornish JackParticipant @cornishjack]

Good thread to let off steam (appropriate for MEs?) however as one whose workshop contains ONLY secondhand UK machinery my view might be construed as biassed. I DO have a Far Eastern device – a cross vice (much to be cross about!!) which is nicely accurate to the nearest inch or so – entirely suitable for my skill level.

Re. Ady's boast of VW excellence – hmmm – I have a VW Passat, lots of bells and whistles and an electronic control module which lives in the passenger footwell. VW's cunning design team arranged that the drain tube for various functions, when blocked, vents into this space and renders most electronic items unuseable – 400 quids worth of repair!! I also, once, owned a Morris 1100 and was puzzled to notice (after 6 months ownership) that the rear view mirror was reducing in area … the roof lining was unpeeling and eventually separated entirely – great British products!!

As for managers – their function is ??? I do not know of ANY manager whose role is CUSTOMER satisfaction and that, most unfortunately, includes our NHS lot – hence recent Shock, Horror stories.

I am, of course, open to correction.

Rgds

Bill

[graham howeParticipant @grahamhowe83128]

I read the initial post about the Chinese hostility reports etc. I really think you are getting off-track about all this and over sensitive. Britain has a long history of hostility and even recent activity demonstrates that we should think about that before getting wound up.

British manufacturing still produces very good products and also some rubbish. Likewise, the Chinese produce very good products and some rubbish. If you want to buy Chinese good machines then be prepared for a shock, they are not cheap. The problem is that the importers buy products to match a perceived market need and in so doing set the price of lathes, mills etc.. If they were to set the price on a par with Myford then the import would be a very different machine to those currently advertised, problem is no one is prepared to buy at these high prices, a reason why Myfords gave up.

Finally, the op is most likely reading this forum using a pc computer with probably most parts made in China and these will be of very high precision in most cases. I know for certain that back in the early 1900's, Britsh made PC computers were poor by comparison (I worked for a UK pc and main-frame manufacture of computers). The Chinese now make use of very expensive production machines to achieve this high quality.

I think much of British engineering was decimated by government policies over the last 50 years and even at its height the engineer was never respected in stark contrast to Germany. The fact we can now buy Chinese imports at very low cost is to be enjoyed but it is entirely up to the buyer to decide if the quality of the product matches needs. Professional lathes etc are still available from Chinese and European markets but they cost a small fortune and for the evarage hobby ME it would be the wrong machine. I can remember how difficult it was in the past to buy kit for the home workshop. Myfords were expensive but had little competition, milling machines were few and expensive, second hand machines were absolutely worn out (not like today). A newcomer these days can get started easilly with a months wages saved and if that means buying Chinese then that's great but above all the quality of work done is not always reliant on the tools but the skills of the operator.

[Gordon WParticipant @gordonw]

Mm early 1900 computer, would get that down to the auction house. My wife was fed up with our cheap, made in China, electric kettle. Yesterday she came home with a new one bearing a well respected British name at 3 times the price, guess where it was made ?

[Author]

Posts