Mystery Object … This one has me beat

[Nicholas FarrParticipant @nicholasfarr14254]

Hi Michael, OK, disc about 4" although I was thinking 4-1/2" to start with, but decided to round up (no pun intended) threaded holes probably 7/16" Whit/UNC. It might put the height at around 6 to 6-1/2".

Regards Nick.

P.S. Doesn't look refined enough and looks a bit heavy and cumbersome for a Javelin gauge though.

Edited By Nicholas Farr on 14/09/2020 08:40:59

[pgk pgkParticipant @pgkpgk17461]

My theory was an archeological relic – dual cupholders for a Roman chariot – R2019 documenting that and the chariot VIN number.

Hmm.. should be RMMXIX but changed to allow boudicca to understand it…

pgk

Edited By pgk pgk on 14/09/2020 08:23:49

[FarmboyParticipant @farmboy]

Having followed this thread with interest, I just had a thought to throw into the mix: the flat shape of the 'anchor' suggests it might have been designed to build into brickwork, i.e. set in the mortar between courses. Probably way off the mark but the best I can come up with so far . . .

Mike.

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Seems very plausible to me, Mike

MichaelG.

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Posted by Shadow on 13/09/2020 23:43:59:

In my experience survey markers are called monumentation. I searched for Ordinance Survey Monumentation and found several pictures similar to the one I have included from the U.S.

Shadow's photo reminded me that another blow was struck this year against Imperial Measure (US English Measure).

The US Survey used the 1893 foot, based on the metre of that day and the same length as the 1866 foot. It's equal to 1200/3937 metres, approximately 0.3048006 metres. It was retained for survey work after the US adopted the International foot in 1959, which redefined 1 foot = 0.3048 metres exactly with 1 inch = 25.4mm.

A curious muddle has developed. Although the US federal survey fully converted to International feet by 1986, many states still have Survey Feet embedded in Law. Not in a logical way, because some jurisdictions use Survey Feet for distance and elevation, while others use International Feet for distance and Survey Feet for height on the same plan. (Yer wot!)

Although the difference between Survey and International feet is tiny, it becomes a problem over long distances and sometimes causes trouble in more ordinary circumstances. Apparently necessary to remove the top-floor of a new skyscraper built near an airport because the architect assumed the height restriction was in Survey Feet (local measure), while the airport safety restriction was Federal. The finished building was slightly too high.

US professionals have long wanted to dump the Survey Foot, but the idea was resisted by traditionalists. But now it's happening. Behind the scenes the professionals really wanted to go metric, but apparently that's a step too far.

Here in the UK we would never be so daft as to confuse ourselves by retaining old and new systems of Weights and Measures!

Dave

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by SillyOldDuffer on 14/09/2020 09:27:12:

[…]

Dave

.

Ah … So you do know where to find the “I’m only kidding” family of smiley things !

MichaelG.

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Here, in all its glory, is the machined but otherwise blank face:

. Click image to view larger

MichaelG.

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Posted by Michael Gilligan on 14/09/2020 08:09:29:

Posted by Nicholas Farr on 14/09/2020 07:47:44:

…

…

… I was hoping someone would simply recognise the thing

Which Clive appears to have done … [ but there again, so did Dave ]

MichaelG.

Michael is never going to forgive me! I apologise, in hope of getting back into his good books. Be ironic if it does turn out to be a Javelin Gauge. It's not impossible.

Speedy Builder Bob suggested this useful list: not precision, not made for strength, holes are 2 different diameters, attached to something else, being bolted from the other side, if supporting something round, its going to rattle about unless there is a rubber grommet or similar, not "gas proof" as the surfaces aren't machined, not ex government, found on a playing field, has an identification number R2019, and thread form as a clue to age.

I'd add it's largish bronze casting, which suggests permanent outdoor use for a rough job not requiring much strength. Looking at the photo, the holes may be to save weight or material. Being unfinished I think the edges would chafe any rope or wire passed through them.

Although it's not well made enough to be a precision survey item, it may have a similar use. I suggest two of these were mounted on flat plates placed on the ground with a cord pulled taut between them to mark out the white lines on pitches and running tracks. The white-line roller is pushed by a Groundsman along the cord to keep the white-line straight. Quicker and less damaging to the grass than banging in stakes and pulling them out. The fitting doesn't have to take any weight because the cord lies on the ground, but it does need to be heavy enough not to move. Possibly the flat shape helps mark out radii?

Bronze has never been cheap, and this is the sort of thing that gets nicked, it was probably accounted for. R2109 identifies the item, perhaps appearing in the books as, TOP, GUIDE, LINE, BRONZE, R2109 – 2 off.

I'm ignoring any significance in the deliberately flat top and coffin-shoulder sides.

Dave

[pgk pgkParticipant @pgkpgk17461]

That's a bit over-engineered for a job that could be done with two skewers and a length of twine?
The blade being flat ended doesn't suggest that that is banged in anywhere either and if the blade length sans shoulders is longer than a brick-width then any mortaring into a wall expects that to be double course or lengthwise terminating – possible if a wall is built with pillars every few yards? Perhaps for the attachment of sconces?

Even for that bronze seems unnecessarily permenant..

pgk

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by SillyOldDuffer on 14/09/2020 10:13:07:

Michael is never going to forgive me! […]

.

Already forgiven, Dave … but not forgotten

MichaelG.

[Nicholas FarrParticipant @nicholasfarr14254]

Hi, this afternoon went for a bike ride, into the one of the country footpath's surrounding the old quarries where I used to work, I know it's no proof of what the mystery item is, but I took a photo of one of the concreate blocks on which the surveyors mounted their gear on. I could only get a small distance view, but I got a zoomed in shot from the highest that I could reach and you can see the plate and pin that I mentioned in my first post. It is about 6" in diameter, which is bigger than I had though, but it is at least 20 years since I've seen one, but you can see there is nothing that special about the surface and from memory they were just turned, but I don't know if the pin was a press fit or if it was part of the casting, just can't remember if I took any notice at the time to one that I was standing next to.

Regards Nick.

Edited By Nicholas Farr on 14/09/2020 18:27:07

[Bo’sunParticipant @bosun58570]

Hi, an OS triangulation point would have had three equispaced groves (presumably brass or bronze) for the theodolite tripod feet to locate in, and sometimes an anchor point in the centre to secure it down.

[Nicholas FarrParticipant @nicholasfarr14254]

Hi Bo'sun, the one in my photo isn't a triangulation point. There were a few of these on the land surrounding a exhausted quarry and were used to make regular checks on any subsidence that may have occurred over a number of years.

Regards Nick.

Edited By Nicholas Farr on 14/09/2020 20:17:00

[Sam Longley 1Participant @samlongley1]

Posted by Neil Wyatt on 12/09/2020 13:01:21:

Posted by John McNamara on 12/09/2020 07:32:31:

Yes I know this is a segway… assuming the part is a survey mark

It's Been a while since I posted on this forum. The past couple of years have been very hectic.
Next Wednesday we pick up the keys to a new house. After 38 years in one house we are moving to the hills about a 45 minute drive from Melbourne.

I wish to build a new shed and in order to do so the council requires survey, I was on site when this was done in order to discuss the location. And yes the EPOXY CNC mill post on this forum will continue when the shed to house it is built.

A Land survey starts not at your property but at the known reference points in the area. One of those points was in a council field nearby, about a foot below the grass! Using the very accurate GPS station that surveyors use he had no problem locating it. The surveyor told me that there are many of these hidden reference marks around the city. The importance of the mark determines how it is founded, the more important ones may sit on hidden but massive concrete foundations.

In older parts of the UK we often have benchmarks, typically what looks like a 'WD' arrow but usually with a horizontal line above.

55 years since I did surveying at college, but did not these marks all relate back to a point in Newlyn in Cornwall?

Or is that no longer the case?

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

Posted by Sam Longley 1 on 14/09/2020 21:33:58:

Posted by Neil Wyatt on 12/09/2020 13:01:21:

Posted by John McNamara on 12/09/2020 07:32:31:

Yes I know this is a segway… assuming the part is a survey mark

It's Been a while since I posted on this forum. The past couple of years have been very hectic.
Next Wednesday we pick up the keys to a new house. After 38 years in one house we are moving to the hills about a 45 minute drive from Melbourne.

I wish to build a new shed and in order to do so the council requires survey, I was on site when this was done in order to discuss the location. And yes the EPOXY CNC mill post on this forum will continue when the shed to house it is built.

A Land survey starts not at your property but at the known reference points in the area. One of those points was in a council field nearby, about a foot below the grass! Using the very accurate GPS station that surveyors use he had no problem locating it. The surveyor told me that there are many of these hidden reference marks around the city. The importance of the mark determines how it is founded, the more important ones may sit on hidden but massive concrete foundations.

In older parts of the UK we often have benchmarks, typically what looks like a 'WD' arrow but usually with a horizontal line above.

55 years since I did surveying at college, but did not these marks all relate back to a point in Newlyn in Cornwall?

Or is that no longer the case?

Yes, that's the case.

[Martin King 2Participant @martinking2]

Newlyn is also the base reference for tide charts

Martin

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