Myford ML4 ?

[Brian WoodParticipant @brianwood45127]

Hello Mike,

​I have seen that dodge being recommended on another ML4 question or thread on this forum, so I imagine it makes the job a whole lot easier, one maybe worth remembering for other similar alignment issues as well.

When you come to putting the gear back on, without telling you how to suck eggs, a tap on the end with a nylon hammer will ensure it is fully seated as well.

Regards Brian

.

[sparky mikeParticipant @sparkymike]

Hi Brian,

I used to use a similar dodge for lining up large 4 litre car engines with the gearboxes. A couple of studs around 4" or 5" long with a tapped end to match the threads in the rear of the engine block and then these guided the engine onto the gearbox (or vice versa if you were replacing the box) and made life a lot easier.

I spent a small amount of time cleaning the headstock spindle morse taper bore today and now just have 0.001" run out measured at same distance as before. I have an mini inspection camera which I can use to check the bore for discrepancies. I could feel a slight scratch and this could well give an error. I also found that it helps to seat the morse taper centre with a copper mallet.

Most of today was spent repairing the car, as I backed into a 12" section RSG at the local scrapyard yesterday and dented and punctured the rear valance. Managed to get out the dents with a hot air gun and then stitch welded the plastic back up again with a 200 watt soldering iron and now got the repair in primer. Wife not too happy as it was her car !!

Oh well ,made a break from Myfords etc.

Mike.

Edited By sparky mike on 01/09/2016 17:36:14

[Brian WoodParticipant @brianwood45127]

Hello Mike,

​A rather similar trick to using a podger bar to line up bolting holes on steelwork, and yes, I have united gearboxes and engine blocks together in the same way with long guide bolts. It does make getting the dowels to fit first time. At least you are definitely winning now, it should get down to tenths in the end.

Sorry to hear of the prang at the scrapyard, I can see an expensive lunch looming.

My joy today was a return visit to the dentist to have confirmation of a dry socket developing at the base of a rather tough extraction from 10 days ago. It needs a course of antibiotics now to clobber it.

These come with a booze embargo just to add to the joy

Regards Brian

[sparky mikeParticipant @sparkymike]

Hi Brian,

Stripped the headstock and no drama at all. The thrust bearings all stayed in their cage and the end pinion was a nice fit and removed easly. I have now checked the truth of the spindle and on V blocks positioned where the bearing run, the shaft clocked up spot on !! Just the allen screws in pulley wheel and bull gear to remove.

I took the shaft to the other lathe and selected a fast speed and cleaned up the morse taper with wet and dry 500 grit . Now stripped for painting.

I am looking for one Partridge flip top oiler for the leadscrew, but not sure of the thread. (2BA ?)

I did notice that at some time the heasdstock has been modified (by Myfords ?) and the left hand back gear journal support has been cut off. This is not needed as the back gear is on a short shaft on the right side of the headstock..

Headstock has same stamped number as pinion and lathe ,so perhaps it was Myford's who were using up old stock.?

Mike.

Mike.

[Brian WoodParticipant @brianwood45127]

Hello Mike,

​Good news with the spindle, I didn't think it would be bent.

I can't help you with the oiler I'm afraid. The back gear cluster is on an eccentric, mounted off the short shaft so that it can be swung into position. Make sure everything has come to rest before using it, I chipped two bull wheel teeth through over eager action.

Regards

Brian

[sparky mikeParticipant @sparkymike]

Now have the bed stripped and with the aid of a long straight file, I have leveled off all the small pads where the rack sits.

It seems that Myford must have missed this operation as most of the pads were just rough uneven castings. (Friday afternoon at Myfords job ?) One of the pads was nearly 1/8" too high, so this must have been the main reason for all the small washers that were behind the rack.

I now have the job of painting the bed and filling the imperfections of which there were many. Myford did not seem too bothered about fetteling the bare castings in those days. While stripping the paint I discovered the words "Made In England" under the Myford letters. These were hidden under many coats of paint.!!

I found a repair of the apron. The inner V slide had broken off at some time and had been subject to a brazed repair. Looks to be a good strong job, so I am not too worried. The outer slide is bolted on with recessed allen screws, so that may also be a repair dodge, but looks to have been done by a decent engineer.

Not sure what an original part should look like.

I will post a photo later.

Mike.

Mike.

[BazyleParticipant @bazyle]

Mike, just realised you are in a perfect position to take a few good photos of your saddle and cross slide components to show Sean on the ML3 thread what he needs. Particularly to compare to the gumtree advert he linked to.

[Brian WoodParticipant @brianwood45127]

Bazyle,

​What a good idea. From the effort that Georgineer put into the ML3 posting it would seem that there were probably identical parts used over the range. Manufacturer will usually try and use common parts where they can be to avoid all the stocking problems of individual parts.

Mike

Good progress by the sound of it. A brazed repair is of course quite satisfactory and for the kind of disaster that must have fallen upon this machine. an inserted piece, made to match the shape and form of the surrounding dovetail would then have been used as the reference face to repair the other side with a bolted on fitting. It would not surprise me if you find it has also been dowelled into position.

It would not have been a cheap repair and certainly not commercially viable, so clearly whoever did it had access to a well equipped workshop and knew what they were doing. Others would have bought spares from Myford, but they might have been unavailable in the wartime years, perhaps that was the deciding factor at the time.

I would though check out the alignment to the spindle to ensure it is actually correct, there may be errors arising purely from the additive nature of the method adopted.

Regards

Brian.

Edited By Brian Wood on 04/09/2016 10:25:00

[sparky mikeParticipant @sparkymike]

Hi Brian,

I will go and take some photos shortly of the cross slide etc. All paint is now stripped off but it is all in one piece.

I had to make a new threaded pin that is one of the two pins on the half nuts that engage with the slots in the handle. It was far too short and only just catching. When I post the photos, bear in mind that I don't know what is original and what is not.

eg. There is an extra low gear on the saddle for end to end traverse and have not seen this yet on other ML 1/2/3/4 lathes but perhaps this was "borrowed" from a later machine.

One thing I am stuck for at the moment is this.

How do you remove the pin at the front of the tail stock in order to remove the shaft. At first I had thought it was a slotted screw, but is is slightly loose but does not want to come out. Do I have to close the slotted part in order to withdraw it or what ?

Mike.

[sparky mikeParticipant @sparkymike]

I have now added an album headed "ML4 parts."

The screw/plug ? whatever can just be seen in the last photo. IMG 5972.

Mike.

[Brian WoodParticipant @brianwood45127]

Hello Mike,

​I misread the dovetail repair on the apron clasp nut guide for a repair of the dovetail guide on the saddle for the cross slide, so my remarks with regard to alignment to spindle would have made no sense at all for the repair that has been carried out. It looks a neat and workmanlike job to me.

Removing the tailstock anti- rotation pin can only be done when you have drawn the tailstock barrel free of it back out of the rear of the tailstock. The pin itself is threaded and has a key on the internal end which engages with the slot down the barrel. It should be slightly slack, the adjustment can only be 1/2 pitch of the thread on it, that may be too much and will prevent easy entry into the slot. I think the screwdriver slot on the end you can see mirrors the key alignment inside

To withdraw the tailstock barrel means removing the two half plates that secure the operating collar in contact with the body of the tailstock and then sliding it backwards. From memory, they are held in position with one screw each 

Regards

Brian

Edited By Brian Wood on 04/09/2016 18:48:51

Edited By Brian Wood on 04/09/2016 18:49:35

[sparky mikeParticipant @sparkymike]

Thanks again Brian, now have the tailstock stripped and painted. You were right about the small key/screw that locates in the spindle slot. I was thinking along different lines. I thought that there was a key which the screw pressed on, not like it actually is in practice. Simple but effective.

While the tailstock was apart, I drilled four 5/8" equidistant holes in the face of the homemade tailstock steel handle which lightens it somewhat.

Mike.

[Brian WoodParticipant @brianwood45127]

Hello Mike,

​Now that you have stripped the tailstock, you will have it all to reassemble and align eventually. I have a worthwhile procedure written up to simplify that tricky process considerably if you would like me to email it to you. Remember I can't add things into my albums, or extract them once they are there.

It will save you hours of frustration. I think the tailstock soleplate fitting that Myford foisted upon their customers was little short of a Friday afternoon job just to get it out of the door. Absolutely diabolical.

Regards Brian

[MuzzerParticipant @muzzer]

Posted by Brian Wood on 05/09/2016 17:58:52:

Remember I can't add things into my albums, or extract them once they are there.

Are you sure? I can add and delete all mine. Are we talking about something else?

[Brian WoodParticipant @brianwood45127]

Muzzer.

My trouble is caused by incompatibility with Microsoft Edge, I even have to fiddle about just to write this.

Paragraph entry will only occur satisfactorily with using the Caps key held down before enter. There are other oddities too with reverse writing from time to time that will only disappear with the delete key and not backspace, although that works just fine in normal writing.

Brian

[sparky mikeParticipant @sparkymike]

I stripped out the apron today so that I can paint it. I noticed on the larger of the two rack feed reduction gears the script, " fabrique en angleterre". Did Myford build machines for France .? It is possibly a pair of gears that came from another lathe or machine , I have no idea.

I did find that the large gear was locked on its thread with a pin, but when I drifted it out, it was a broken drill bit !!

I have done a search for Myford aprons with the reduction gear, but so far have found no photos. The apron looks original in the gear area although most ML lathes I have seen have a cutaway area on the right lower portion of the apron, whereas on my lathe it is straight.

Mike.

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

"fabrique en angleterre" is a common stamping on older Meccano parts.

It was done to meet a French requirement for items to be marked with their country of origin during the 1920's. I don't think it necessarily means that the item has actually been to France, only that sales in France were a possibility.

The implication is that the gear pre-dates your lathe. No surprise that your early Myford shows evidence of repairs. I expect it's been loved by several previous owners.

Dave

[Andy AshParticipant @andyash24902]

I'm pretty sure your machine has been modified Mike.

Normally the handle is on a shaft that passes through the apron. On the other side of the apron, on the same shaft is the pinion that directly engages with the rack.

Most lathes the saddle traverse operates in the other direction to the normal ML 1/2/3/4.

If you're working close to the chuck, you're used to a normal lathe and you forget; it can be nasty.

This is especially true when you finish a job and want to just wind the saddle back.

Many people modify them with an extra gear to reverse the direction of travel and avoid the accidental crash.

Edited By Andy Ash on 06/09/2016 20:51:27

[sparky mikeParticipant @sparkymike]

Hi, I had wondered about the gears being Meccano but can't remember them being quite like those on my lathe.

Interesting about the known mod with saddle direction. I had not realised the possible problem as lathe has not been running yet. So at least I will be safe as it is !!

Re. Meccano, I graduated through the sets from one to nine, all in carboard boxes. I never got to set ten which came in a wooden box.!! Only rich kid's dads could afford them.

By the way, I had a job to type this as sentences were being mixed up as I typed.. A hacker on the site ??

[sparky mikeParticipant @sparkymike]

Well the lathe is now painted up and I went to fit the motor to the Myford bench stand and found that it was turning anticlockwise. I reversed one pair of the windings, so now correct.

I am just using a temporary motor pulley around 3.5" diameter, but would like to know the correct nominal size for this pulley. Probably a tricky question, as most of these lathes will have, by now ,been altered from stock condition.,

I did wonder about calculating the size working back from the motor speed which is probably aroud 1475rpm.

I failed to find any reference in the ML handbook re. spindle speeds, although I thought that I had seen it somewhere in print.

It also seems that the above pulley needs to be dished heavily on the motor side, in order to be able to line up the drive belt. If that fails then I will need to make a longer spindle for the countershaft. (The triple pulley on headstock is in good alignment with the countershaft pulley.)

Mike.

[BazyleParticipant @bazyle]

I think you could drop down a size on the motor pulley, if possible using a twin one so you have 2 speeds for the countershaft aiming for about 150 rpm slowest without backgear. Then your 3 step pulley would give you say 300 & 600 and going back to the big motor pulley bump up to 250 at the bottom. I'm not sure what people would advise as the top speed for this type of spindle but bear in mind that the newer ML10 only went up to 850 in the plain bearing model.

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Posted by sparky mike on 06/09/2016 21:15:00:

Hi, I had wondered about the gears being Meccano but can't remember them being quite like those on my lathe.

Interesting about the known mod with saddle direction. I had not realised the possible problem as lathe has not been running yet. So at least I will be safe as it is !!

Re. Meccano, I graduated through the sets from one to nine, all in carboard boxes. I never got to set ten which came in a wooden box.!! Only rich kid's dads could afford them.

By the way, I had a job to type this as sentences were being mixed up as I typed.. A hacker on the site ??

You memory is good. It's very unlikely that your gears are actually Meccano as these are on the small side for a lathe.

Lucky you getting up to Set 9, I never had enough parts to make a big model. Aged 11 I spent a couple of weeks in hospital and the Children's Ward had a pristine Set 10 with several boxes of motors and other bits. We weren't allowed to play with it!

Dave

[sparky mikeParticipant @sparkymike]

Just found out that motor pulley was 1.750" diameter,going by the illustrated extras in the handbook.

I must check my super seven .Not sure of the size on that motor. (Just curious.)

Mike.

Edited By sparky mike on 11/09/2016 20:54:40

[sparky mikeParticipant @sparkymike]

I have now taken a few more photos of the lathe now it is back in one piece. I was not happy with the homemade bull wheel guard, so have made a new one. A tricky item to get right, as not much clearance between several items, I had to do a small modification to it as the reduction gear was fouling the guard when it moved back on the cam, but all is ok now. The motor drive belt is too tight by around 1/2" at the moment, so need the next size up I think.

Photos are in the ML4 parts album.

[HopperParticipant @hopper]

Re the pulley size, it depends on what size the large pulley is. Ideally you want the counter shaft to run at about 400rpm so the main headstock spindle runs at about 800rpm, 400rpm and 200rpm, in rough round figures.

Plenty of online pulley calculators to tell you what size you want if you pump in your motor speed, pulley sizes and desired rpm etc.

Again in rough figues, for a circa 1475rpm motor, you can run about a 2" small pulley and a 8 or 9" large pulley to get the abovementioned spindle speeds. So your 1.75" would be right in there if you have a 8" main pulley or even a 7".

A 3.5" pulley would be more suited to something like a 12" pulley but you might get away with a 10". That wuold give a spindle top speed of about 1,000rpm, probably about as fast as you want to go with plain bearings, maybe even a little too fast.

It depends too on what ratios exactly the pulleys on the countershaft and headstock spindle give you. For some reason mine (M type) are not quite 1:1 on the medium speed and not quite double and half respectively for low and high ratios. It all has to do with keeping the required belt length the same on each speed.

I ended up buying a $20 digital tachometer that has an infrared beam you aim at a white sticker on the pulley and get the exact speed so I got mine set up just how I wanted it. But that was probably overkill, or just wanting a new toy to play with!

Edited By Hopper on 17/09/2016 09:46:15

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