Myford Correct Oils

[David Standing 1Participant @davidstanding1]

Posted by Andy Beckett on 20/11/2017 18:35:19:

Thanks David, all ordered.

Thanks Neil, so will it be ok to start using oil and leave the grease?

Sorry for all the questions, haven't touched a lathe since school!

Providing the grease hasn't set like concrete, use the oil gun to force any remaining grease out (and don't wear your best shirt whilst doing it)

[Andy BeckettParticipant @andybeckett68581]

So all I need to sort out is the oil for the bed, so what's recommended there then please?

[David Standing 1Participant @davidstanding1]

Posted by Andy Beckett on 20/11/2017 20:46:14:

So all I need to sort out is the oil for the bed, so what's recommended there then please?

Andy

ISO 68, see Clive Foster's post #3 on the previous page.

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

Posted by Michael Gilligan on 20/11/2017 18:46:12:

Posted by Neil Wyatt on 20/11/2017 18:27:02:

Lathes UK waltzes around various types before recommending ISO 32 hydraulic oil for everything except vertical slideways.

.

… Of which there are not many on the typical Myford Lathe.

MichaelG.

But if you read the advice you will understand what I mean.

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by Neil Wyatt on 20/11/2017 21:03:07:

Posted by Michael Gilligan on 20/11/2017 18:46:12:

Posted by Neil Wyatt on 20/11/2017 18:27:02:

 

Lathes UK waltzes around various types before recommending ISO 32 hydraulic oil for everything except vertical slideways.

.

… Of which there are not many on the typical Myford Lathe.

MichaelG.

 

But if you read the advice you will understand what I mean.

.

Neil,

If I didn't understand what you meant, I wouldn't have joked about it.

MichaelG.

.

For the benefit of other readers:

[quote]

Slideway oils
A dedicated slideway oil is Shell Tonna 68 (ISO 68). However, on small lathes, below 5-inch centre height, it may be found that a slideway oil with a ISO 68 viscosity is too heavy and the machine will function perfectly well with a ISO 32 grade. Personally, except on vertical slideways found on milling and drilling machines, I find the slideway oils too sticky and prefer a straight ISO 32 – it gives a more sensitive feel on delicate jobs.

[/quote]

Source: http://www.lathes.co.uk/latheparts/page17.html

Edited By Michael Gilligan on 20/11/2017 21:29:29

[Andy BeckettParticipant @andybeckett68581]

Thanks guys, all sorted.

[Clive FosterParticipant @clivefoster55965]

ISO 68 oils do vary in stickyness but my experience is that there is little, if any, difference in the ease with which well adjusted sideways move between a well chosen ISO 68 and ISO 32. Set-up and adjustment of sideways seem to be much more important. Its well worth taking few hours to get sideways and gibs properly clean and adjusted just so. In particular the varnish like deposit from oil , gone off, oil promotes stiction and upsets the clearances. Total PIA to shift. Especially if engine oil has been used. I think things react.

My Smart & Brown 1024 uses ISO 32 (Castrol Hyspin AWS32) for bed lubrication via a pump in the apron driven from the saddle longitudinal drive. So ISO 32 is clearly up for the job on a full size lathe as well as a model makers one. However it uses, relatively speaking, a lot of oil so refilling the apron is a regular chore.

Its also noticeable that the ISO 32 oil film dries out quite quickly. After a few hours of non use, certainly overnight, the saddle is clearly less free moving until its been wound back and forth a couple or four times to get some oil up. If I've not used it for a couple of days or more I anoint the bed with ISO 68 (Castrol Magna BD68) both sides of the saddle and along the bed where the hold down bearings run. Once the saddle has moved enough to get fully over the oiled section it seems just as easy to move as when relying on the ISO 32 from the pump. My P&B model B doesn't have an oil pump so bed lubrication is by manual anointing. Can't feel any difference between ISO 32 and ISO 68 as way lubricant but the ISO 32 needs more frequent application. The saddle clamp system on the P&W is a bit worn and doesn't quite come up properly tight. Its noticeably more grippy with ISO 32 than ISO 68.

One impressive property of ISO 68 is the way it strings between the backgears. They run quieter to than with ISO 32.

AS ever YMMD.

Clive.

[Mike PooleParticipant @mikepoole82104]

The lubrication choices for a Myford were probably chosen about 70 years ago, I wonder if a lubrication specialist would make the same choices today. Stuff like motorcycle chain lube has an ingredient called Paratac which makes it very sticky and less likely to fly off, it may also make other stuff stick to it so that could be a minus point. Perhaps chain lube would be good for gears, the inside of the covers on my Myford have much of the oil that I apply to the various oil points, it also finds its way onto the belts which is unhelpful.

Mike

[David Standing 1Participant @davidstanding1]

Posted by Mike Poole on 21/11/2017 10:56:28:

The lubrication choices for a Myford were probably chosen about 70 years ago, I wonder if a lubrication specialist would make the same choices today. Stuff like motorcycle chain lube has an ingredient called Paratac which makes it very sticky and less likely to fly off, it may also make other stuff stick to it so that could be a minus point. Perhaps chain lube would be good for gears, the inside of the covers on my Myford have much of the oil that I apply to the various oil points, it also finds its way onto the belts which is unhelpful.

Mike

I have heard motorcycle chain lube recommended for lathe gear trains before, for exactly those reasons.

[peak4Participant @peak4]

Posted by Clive Foster on 21/11/2017 10:30:59:

………………..

One impressive property of ISO 68 is the way it strings between the backgears. They run quieter to than with ISO 32.

AS ever YMMD.

Clive.

Try chainsaw oil if you want "stringiness". It also wipes off the hands easier than motorcycle (or forklift) aerosol chain lube.

Bill

[Gordon WParticipant @gordonw]

I'm sure I've posted this before- be careful of chainsaw chain oil' some are enviromentally friendly and degrade quickly. Good for the planet but not so for the lathe.

[Clive FosterParticipant @clivefoster55965]

Although the ISO 32 / ISO 68 equivalent pairing was made 70 odd years ago its still perfectly relevant today. Viscosity, and its variation with temperature, essentially defines all the major parameters of oil behaviour. If something was designed and made to work correctly with ISO32 70 years ago then ISO 32 is what it needs today. That pair was, and is, a very common choice for machine tools. Development over the years has considerably improved the efficiency of lubrication in the machine tool environment and correspondingly reduced wear but if the machine still works best with the viscosity it was designed for. Not something probably inappropriate chosen just because one aspect of its behaviour looks good or is considered sexy by the puditaria.

If you seriously want to change the oil you also need to re-work the design to make best use of the properties of the new oil. Which may not be easy. In particular the effects of oil film thickness and shear rate on drag and lubrication / wear properties need to be quantified if any real benefit is to result. Modern car engines are an excellent example of the problems involved. These days oils are almost specific spare parts for each model. Heck even the same engine from the same factory may have different oils specified for different vehicles. Upside is extended oil change intervals and 200,000 mile plus engine life. Downside is serious wear if the wrong oil is used.

The main reason for oil all over the place on a machine tool is over-lubrication. At times I'm as guilty as anyone. Geo. H. Thomas who remarked on this concerning folks complaining about handing dirty, oily change wheels saying:-

"The amount of sliding movement of one tooth on the next is very small indeed and the duty light so so there is no need to smother them in grease or bathe them in oil. …. will leave you with hands like the village blacksmith. My gears … they have only a thin oily film on them which is perfectly adequate for the duty performed and seems to stay there almost indefinitely." (ref "Dividing & Graduating, 1989 reprint, p23)

The stringing of ISO 68 between gears is merely observational proof of transfer down the gear train. Drip a little on the top gear and what it stringing down to the lowest one. Maybe little fling off into the tray if the drips were more splot but you will be good for the next year or so.

Similarly with headstock bearings. The SouthBend 9" is justly renowned for the long life of its simple direct in the casting headstock bearings yet these are simply fed by a wick wiper from small reservoirs. Actual oil consumption is tiny, mine used to see an oil can about once every 6 months.

One place where over-lubrication is probably beneficial is on the bed. I periodically squirt clean oil on, rub with a clean rag or pair towel and wipe off to remove any residues long before they have got to the gone off varnish stage. Do a similar wipe off before lubricating the cross and top slide ways. Tailstock too.

Clive.

{Poxy spell un-corrector!}

Edited By Clive Foster on 21/11/2017 14:23:31

Edited By Clive Foster on 21/11/2017 14:24:17

Edited By Clive Foster on 21/11/2017 14:26:03

[PeroParticipant @pero]

Perhaps having two bob (20 cents) each way, the supplier of one of my lathes recommended ISO 48 for all parts of all of their lathes ranging from small bench top 'hobby' lathes to large industrial lathes.

Seems to work OK although I still use ISO 32 on my ML7 (perhaps out of sentimentality or perhaps just because I still have lot of it). If I am not using the machines for a while they usually get a coating of ACF-50 which seems to work well.

Incidentally, as I seem to be able to make stainless steel rust by simply being in the same room with it, whenever I buy something new – tools, castings, steel stock etc. I carefully take it out of the wrapping without touching it with the fatal fingers and give it a spray with ACF-50 or INOX. After that I have found things much more resistant to rust. Worth trying if you are a fellow corrosive.

Pero

[Mike PooleParticipant @mikepoole82104]

I agree I am probably an over enthusiastic oiler but it should do less harm than under lubrication, it does make a mess. A good point about engines being designed to use a particular spec. of oil, my 1974 Trident would probably not like a fully synthetic engine oil as modern high performance engines use. Its need to change 6 pints every 1500 miles used to leave me with lots of used oil in cans, don't let the environmentalists know that I found mixed with real creosote it was great for painting on my mums fence, most of the wood in that fence is now about 80 years old, don't rub against it in your cricket whites though. I had a bit of a look at the Castrol and Mobil sites and it seems that the Myford recommendations still hold good but the oils have probably had a few tweaks in the last 70 years.

Mike

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

Posted by Gordon W on 21/11/2017 14:00:02:

I'm sure I've posted this before- be careful of chainsaw chain oil' some are enviromentally friendly and degrade quickly. Good for the planet but not so for the lathe.

I was going to say that

[peak4Participant @peak4]

Posted by Neil Wyatt on 21/11/2017 19:17:10:

Posted by Gordon W on 21/11/2017 14:00:02:

I'm sure I've posted this before- be careful of chainsaw chain oil' some are enviromentally friendly and degrade quickly. Good for the planet but not so for the lathe.

I was going to say that

I understand your comment; However I've been using a plain old fashioned mineral chainsaw oil, rather than one of the newer biodegradable rapeseed oil chainsaw lubricants. Maybe I should have made that clearer.

I save the vegetable oils for cooking, though I understand Castrol R smells good in a lawnmower.

Bill

[Mike PooleParticipant @mikepoole82104]

I think Castrol R would add a bit of a taste to your roast taters, used to smell nice at speedway though.

Mike

[Bob n AboutParticipant @bobnabout]

I just buy in 25ltr drums of ISO32 hydraulic oil. It gets used in/on all machines and also goes in the engine crane and hydraulic log splitter. Be very wary of using automotive synthetic oils as many have additives that may well attack your bronze and brass bushes. The ISO32 I get declares it compatible with all bronze parts. look up Morris Lubricants Liquimatic No.4, I am a happy customer, they also do 5ltr cans.

[Brian WarburtonParticipant @brianwarburton57879]

I have just purchased a speed 10 and the bearings are full of grease. Do I need to dismantle and clean the bearings before adding the correct oil or is it enough to force out the grease by forcing in oil? Also, will the grease have done any damage?

[Brian HParticipant @brianh50089]

Regarding the earlier comment about grease nipples being fitted but oil being specified, I've just taken possession of a Union tool & cutter grinder and finding that it too is fitted with grease nipples, I've greased them. Now I think that maybe I should have used oil!!

Brian

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Posted by Brian Warburton on 13/12/2017 16:32:49:

I have just purchased a speed 10 and the bearings are full of grease. Do I need to dismantle and clean the bearings before adding the correct oil or is it enough to force out the grease by forcing in oil? Also, will the grease have done any damage?

I'd say flush the grease out with lots of oil unless you really want to see what's inside. The bearings may well have been damaged due to lack of lubrication in the past but grease is better than nothing. I'd assume they're OK unless there's an obvious symptom like heat, noise or looseness. If they've been damaged they may simply wear out early. That might take another 30 years to happen.

If a Myford expert says different believe him rather than me.

Dave

Edited By SillyOldDuffer on 13/12/2017 19:11:59

[Peter HallParticipant @peterhall61789]

Posted by SillyOldDuffer on 13/12/2017 19:10:50:

Posted by Brian Warburton on 13/12/2017 16:32:49:

I have just purchased a speed 10 and the bearings are full of grease. Do I need to dismantle and clean the bearings before adding the correct oil or is it enough to force out the grease by forcing in oil? Also, will the grease have done any damage?

I'd say flush the grease out with lots of oil

Whoa there cowboy! I'm not an expert of any sort, but if it's headstock roller bearings you're talking about, my Speed 10 manual says " use a light Lithium-based grease, NLGI No. 2, e.g. Castrol LM grease."

As a sidebar, my Speed 10 has been dripping all over with 32 hydraulic oil for about 10 years and still looks pristine

Pete

[Clive HartlandParticipant @clivehartland94829]

Yes, I agree with Pete, Lithium based grease for the headstock bearings,One pump of the grease gun only after say 12 hours running and just wipe up what comes out.For the bed, I have been using a PTFE oil which does perfectly well what older oils seem to do.

Clive

[Howard LewisParticipant @howardlewis46836]

Oh Dear!

I've been using Motor oil on my ML7 and its successor. Without any obvious problems though.

No doubt the additives in SAE 20/50 are superfluous for the relatively low temperatures and rubbing speeds encountered in our lathes. Mine can't reach 6,000 rpm, the loads probably do not equate to the inertia loads or bearing temperatures seen in high performance engines, and I can't spin the Handwheels that fast!

Hence my laid back attitude to lubrication on our hobby machines, rather than absolute obedience to manufacturer's recommendations, good as tghey are.

Using Hypoid oil , which is active, with brass or phosphor bronze might be a different matter.

Howard

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