Motor Input and Output Power

[AjohnwParticipant @ajohnw51620]

Ketan wants to sell Clive. That's how he makes his living and Rolls Royces are expensive to run.

I know that certain problems are caused by the importers changing specs and not really caring if it interfers with it's use as a lathe. The extra 2in centre distance gained by shortening the tail stock is one that was followed on lots of lathes – can't turn up to a centre because it wont reach – tough buy and fit and often poorly made morse extension sleeve and finish up with less centre distance than the lathe originally had.

I feel input and output powers are the best option as people will wonder if others don't follow. I'm not at all surprised by the comment about the German importers at all. I mentioned why in another thread also how wonderful a Wabeco 4000E is. It has it's pluses but for cost design wise it's seriously flawed – the term rip off springs to mind bought new. The same is true of a number of what might be called their big boys toys and a number of other things including some factors of their more famous cars. As I have followed lathes for some years I also know they were the first to mention micron level spindle bore run out which in terms of axial alignment means nothing at all. Misleading to say the least.

John

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[Ketan SwaliParticipant @ketanswali79440]

Posted by John W1 on 13/10/2015 21:11:55:

Ketan wants to sell Clive. That's how he makes his living and Rolls Royces are expensive to run.

John

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Now now John, don't care much for Rolls Royces. I have a VW diesel for which I just received the introduction recall letter today 'Service Actrion: EA189 diesel engines' for which I feel really privileged

Ketan at ARC.

[Clive HartlandParticipant @clivehartland94829]

Hello Ketan, I have a VW diesel and my car was upgraded on Thursday last, the engine no longer has the Ooomph it had before so I am determined to claim for miss selling and performance loss.

Clive

[Ketan SwaliParticipant @ketanswali79440]

Oh dear Clive, that sounds bad. Mine is a Tiguan, but I can't be asked to bomb about in it. Has your car lost any Oomph for example when trying to take off/get quickly away at roundabouts?. The GM at the SIEG factory has a Toureg. I know that he will not be a happy bunny if his vehicle has lost the Oomph.

Ketan at ARC.

[AjohnwParticipant @ajohnw51620]

Posted by Clive Hartland on 13/10/2015 21:26:12:

Hello Ketan, I have a VW diesel and my car was upgraded on Thursday last, the engine no longer has the Ooomph it had before so I am determined to claim for miss selling and performance loss.

Clive

Are you really sure about that or imagining it Clive? The press is making a right meal of it all. All types, are worse in use on the roads but petrol hasn't been mentioned. The so called cheat device is probably a piece of software and nothing more than that.

There are other factors too. I have actually seen road tests being done at MIRA on the track many times. Soon it will emerge that they tape up the joints which actually isn't a bad thing to do. It already has actually a few weeks ago on the TV. It's very difficult to get repeatable conditions. The tape helps smooth out variations due to wind and other aspects and makes a negligible difference to the tests.

I doubt if there is any need for them to alter the oomph. I'm not familiar with the tests they have to meet but would strongly suspect that they are under static conditions as adding other factors would get far to complicated. What gear, how steep a hill and all sorts of other things. Number of people in the car, load in the boot, anything being towed and etc. I keep meaning to try and dig the rules out. The companies have a tough life. I know of one make where the software said oh dear the cat is suffering so cut engine power immediately, didn't matter if the car was doing 70mph on a crowded motor way. Things get ever so complicated a more and more situations arise. That one had to be fixed quickly.

One thing for sure diesels are increasingly efficient year by year and that signifies less pollution. It's a pity about nitrous oxide but I understand that there are ways of dealing with that and suspect the situation was similar to petrol when cats were introduced. Lean burn was getting there but "gov" said no use cats. One company was talking about squirting urea into the exhaust on diesels and I suspect that is the best option, not sure, however that company unlike Ford for instance didn't produce diesel engines that let out a lot of smoke. I have noticed that a number of newer models various makes now put out puffs smoke following a period when they never did. This might be done to keep the cat happy. They do something similar on petrol engines – squirt too much in on purpose at times. On cars like suburu's it's a nice easy way to get stacks of oomph for a while too. Many motor bikes run like that all of the time.

What is needed really is a statement as to what the cheat actually does. Not loads of rubbish that is pretty obvious and rather difficult to do anything about. I actually wonder if it's just a cheat for an MOT style smoke test. A pretty stupid test introduced to get round problems on older designs of engine and also force improvements. It can still be used. Manufacturer's probably do play with fuelling at certain constant speeds which is a cheat but this does meet legislation.

I heard on the TV that Ford were warned about this sort of thing some years ago. It's pretty easy to guess why VW are having a tougher time. Others will as well because if one major manufacturer is others will be doing it too. The real road testing results are mainly of news worthy interest to the unrealistic at times green people and are a separate problem. They can help to formulate legislation – maybe adding auto stop start in traffic jams for instance. Legislation has to be more realistic otherwise no cars. As I understand it euro ever increasing n will help in the on the road aspect as it implies better fuel consumption. Things have already gone a long way on diesels. They are way better than the early gas guzzling turbo's that were about when they started to become more popular.

One interesting oomph aspect about diesels is the gain on the throttle – set to make them feel more powerful than petrol cars. They are also good at providing low speed torque and offer better load variation performance than petrol appear to be able to do. The manufacturers get up to all sorts of tricks at times. One thing on diesels is that hardly any of them take steps to cause the engine to heat up in a reasonable time. That's bad really and signifies can't be bothered. Once the diesel engine for a car was totally different to the petrol one. That sadly isn't the case any more. They now tend to be very similar in all sorts of ways.

John

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[Clive HartlandParticipant @clivehartland94829]

JohnWI, Volks. already do a system called Adblue. which you have to put a liquid in another tank when you refuel. Yes, I am sure it's a Urea mixture and it is only in certain models of VW. All round I am extremely pleased with the new VW Passat and now it seems it has been de-graded slightly on engine acceleration.. Everything else is the same,

I have now been in contact with a Legal company called, 'Leigh Day' who have responded back to me telling they have been inundated with legal enquiries over the VW's. This is not sour grapes on my part but a miss selling by VW through their Agencies here in the UK and Worldwide. I have not now a car that was advertised in their brochures as , 'Low pollution', they broke the law and sit, awaiting massive payouts to customers and they themselves will now sue VW GMBH.

Clive

[Howard LewisParticipant @howardlewis46836]

"Cheat" software is not new. Guess where it was first used? By U S engine manufacturers. One of whom, I believe, boasted that the software detected when the engine was running at the speed and load for a particular part of the test cycle, and then adjusted the engine parameters, (fuel delivery, timing etc) to bring the emissions within the limits set for that part of the test.

Quoting "big" power outputs is merely marketing. MANY years ago, it was found that engine powers were affected by temperature of the air inhaled, and of the fuel supplied. Obvious, when you think of the specific gravity or density of the air and the fuel. Cold air contains a greater mass of Oxygen, so can be used to burn more fuel. Similarly, for a given volume, cold fuel has a greater mass. Hence standard test cycles were developed, (such as BS649, BS Au 141 etc) and observed powers were corrected by calculation to give a level corresponding to the appropriate Standard.

In smaller Diesel engines, running on Gas Oil, power was usually quoted at 40'C fuel inlet . One manufacturer claimed greater power. Reading the small print, they were quoting at 20'C fuel inlet! So an engine delivering 300 hp under those conditions would actually deliver about 282 hp under the more realistic 40'C operating condition. So, one does it, and everyone, not to be outdone, follows suit!

Small air compressors quote Displacement, because it is a larger, more impressive figure. Free Air Delivery, which is what you are actually looking for is less. Internal leakage and volumetric efficiency, (always less than 100%), cause the reduction

All this is Marketing, (dare I say "hype"?) intended to make the product look superior at a quick glance.

And, Yes, you do suffer for telling the truth; unless, (and sometimes, despite) explaining the detail behind the figures.

Input Power says how much power is consumed; Output Power says how much is delivered. The ratio between the two signifies the efficiency of the motor. A figure may be quoted, and in small print, say Intermittent. The Continuous output will be less. What then appears at the tool/workpiece contact will be even less because of losses in the transmission, (gears or belts) and bearings.

The Pennsylvania Railroad GG Electric locomotive was rated, from memory at 3,300 hp, but for short periods would deliver 5,000, to produce rapid acceleration or to climb a fairly short gradient.

Electric Hand Tools, intended for D I Y use will be designed for intermittent use. Those designed for Industrial use will be more likely to withstand Continuous use, with larger bearings, gears and better cooling. But will cost more, and so may appear to be less efficient.

Enzo Ferrari once said that the ideal racing car would disintegrate as it crossed the Finish line. It was intended to deliver maximum performance for the length of the race, not for 150,000 miles. Which is why our 1.5 litre cars cannot do 200 mph, but can carry our families for huge mileages.

If Ketan quotes Input AND Output powers he is being truthful, and providing the information with which a buyer can make an informed judgement.

"The sour taste of poor quality will linger, long after the sweet taste of low price"

Howard

[AjohnwParticipant @ajohnw51620]

I wonder if this is correct

**LINK**

Or quote to save reading it

How does a 'defeat device' work?

Modern diesel cars use a fluid called urea that's then pumped into the exhaust system which in turn reduces the amount of nitrogen oxide that's released into the atmosphere.

A 'defeat device' is a piece of software that can detect when the car is undergoing emissions testing at which point it will start pumping more urea into the system.

A sensor is placed inside the exhaust which then measures the car as it 'drives'.

The problem is that it's not sustainable. Under normal driving conditions the fluid would run out extremely quickly.

For short periods of time though such as say, in a laboratory, the system can make the car appear to be far more environmentally friendly than it actually is.

That sounds highly illegal?

You would be right, it absolutely is.

Last time my car was MOT'd I didn't see any signs of a laboratory. News bullshit.

One way of detecting if the car is being tested would be to say hey I've been ticking over for a while and do it then. From a pollution point of view that actually makes a lot of sense. Cars spend loads of time ticking over in modern traffic conditions. On the other hand the abs ecu might tell the engine management that something weird is going on here, each axle has been brake tested so more urea. Or even that plus all of the lights have been tested. The engine management might also squirt more in each time the car accelerates. Good for pollution again. They are extremely efficient at constant speed so less of a problem.

John

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[AjohnwParticipant @ajohnw51620]

Then comes this statement, from the link

Both the UK and the EU have far stricter testing methods so it's less likely that any car manufacturer would have been able to use this same method to hide their emissions figures.

In a statement, the Transport Secretary Patrick McLoughlin said:

"We are closely monitoring the situation and have been pushing for action at a European level for more accurate tests that reflect driving on the road."

"It's vital that the public has confidence in vehicle emissions tests and I am calling for the European Commission to investigate this issue as a matter of urgency."

LOL. As some one from the SMMT put it the cars do meet regulations. Put it all together and it's odd that there is a recall really but when the cat is out of the bag the auto industry is very keen on public relations. They may even have recalls and in real terms change something other than what the recall seems to be for. That doesn't seem to be the case this time.

Mitsubishi were talking about using urea before cat's were fitted to diesels. I don't know if they did. Not long after I bought a V6 Passat that had been fitted with an uncontrolled cat system. Because they got that aspect wrong they later altered the engine management software, result a 10% drop in fuel consumption. There is no way my driving pattern needed the change. Later they put some sub standard cam belt replacement parts on the market. As I'm a private motorist I have to keep my cars for a significant length of time. The replacement lasted for under 20,000 miles not 60,000 as per the time to change for the original.

No problem with my Jaguar X type so far, touch wood, other than the usual one on many these days – new clutch at about 40,000 and a couple of I suspect odd recalls. The clutch seems to be a Ford / GM thing as the same thing happened on a SAAB but they replaced for free. Trouble even though suspension settings differ from a Mondeo the X type still drives a bit like one.

I'm running out of manufacturers I trust.

It'll be interesting to see what happens long term. Legal aspects could be distinctly different in the USA compared with the UK and Europe.

John

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[Ketan SwaliParticipant @ketanswali79440]

Interesting analogy Howard. I will have to investigate the temperature issue more with the factory.

Ketan at ARC.

[Ketan SwaliParticipant @ketanswali79440]

The temperature issue was brought to my attention during the discussion of how SIEG measured the output power when using a specific machine – similar to the one suggested by Michael G. At the time my head was already full of other Wattage stuff that I was failing to take in what they were saying, but apparantly if you make motors, you have this testing equipment. So, I will look into this more.

John W – if possible, could I please request you to carry on with the VW story on a new thread?. I dont mind small comments about comparison here where there is a link, and I know that I did start off by mentioning my VW, for which I apologise. It is just that I would like to stay focused on the subject of input and output motor power on this thread rather then it being hijacked into the VW story.

Ketan at ARC.

[AjohnwParticipant @ajohnw51620]

Posted by Neil Wyatt on 13/10/2015 20:58:44:

Prony brake.

Neil

The brake in the link is a joke as is the general idea. If the lathe has an 180v motor regulated for speed via a controller from 240 I don't think that type of meter would give a correct current reading. It would need a true rms meter with a decent frequency range which clamp on meters like that aren't as far as I'm aware. As an electronic hobbyist I have often looked at them. I suspect even a so called true rms dvm could have problems.

John

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[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

What on earth are about John?

A prony brake is entirely mechanical and can be used to accurately measure the output power of any rotating shaft..

… and if you mean Ketan's link the meter has got "Fluke True RMS Meter" written on it – and fluke aren't cheap or crap…

[Steven Tao 2Participant @steventao2]

Hi Ketan, Have you think about re-introducing the SIEG brushed motor range? It is cheaper so make my life easier here in Australia for selling Brushed and HiTorque Brushless

Steven at AUSEE

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

As [predominantly low-usage] end-users, I'm sure we are most interested in the output power and contolability of our motors … But, in the global arena, efficiency is the 'big thing'.

It's worth reading this EU document [don't worry, it's only 12 pages] to get a flavour of the political angle.

MichaelG.

[Howard LewisParticipant @howardlewis46836]

The addition of Urea to the exhaust gasses is a fairly recent means if reducing tailpipe emissions, to comply with Euro 6 standards.

So software to adjust the fuelling, boost pressure and/or timing has been around for a long time.

Other reasons for turbocharging a Diesel engine, apart from increasing power because of the increased mass of Oxygen available for combustion, is to provide excess air to cool the cylinder components, and, more recently, to deliver excess air to dilute the exhaust gasses and reduce the emission seen at the tailpipe.

This can also be done on a petrol engine if the fuel injection is timed, rather than continuous.

If used with continuous fuel injection, or a Carburretor, mixture would lost to the exhaust, and would show up as excess fuel consumption, and on an Emissions test as excess Hydrocarbons. There would probably be some explosions in the exhaust system as well!

The process is often referred to as "Blow Down".

As Neil says, a Prony brake is merely a rope running around the Flywheel, from a fixed point to a Spring Balance. Since the power of the prime mover is being converted into heat, the Flywheel includes a hollow portion. Into this is added water, which removes the heat energy by evaporating. The water is held inside the Flywheel by the centrifugal force resulting from its rotation.

Knowing the diameter of the Flywheel, the Spring balance reading allows the Torque output of the machine to be calculated, and hence the power output.

If you are in UK and you want to see such a Flywheel go to see the single cylinder Blackstone engine in the Southall Wing of the The WaterWorks Museum at Hereford! This engine was, at one time, in a Technical College, and also carries a Dobbies McKinney indicator to draw an Indicator Diagram of the Cylinder Pressures during the operating cycle.

Howard

[David ColwillParticipant @davidcolwill19261]

There has been a trend to confuse buyers by various means including using different units of measurement, Peak output / rms, massaging figures and outright lies. I sympathise with Ketan but can't help but think that there is no answer but the one that he is adopting, namely just tell the truth.

I bought a Sieg X2 (brushless) off him. I have not studied the motor nor read the rating plate nor taken any measurements of it. I have used it and it is powerful enough but in truth I have no way of easily verifying the input or output power of the motor. Instead I rely on him valuing his good name and the testimony of others on this and other forums.

Things will I'm sure improve slowly. The move in supermarkets to state the cost per unit on items was a step in the right direction but even this falls down if you look closely.

In these days of youtube reviews by people connected with suppliers or getting freebies off them it is easy to be misled but to quote the X Files "the truth is out there".

Regards.

David.

[Jeff DaymanParticipant @jeffdayman43397]

Ketan, I may be naive about what suppliers might agree to but is it possible to ask the suppliers to supply the lathes with a bit more powerful motor than the competition, and feature that in your adverts? I think hobbyists who are paying attention to specs will gladly pay a little extra money for a bit more HP/Watts at the spindle, if it were available. It would be a nice leg up on competitors and real value for money. Just a thought. Thanks for your continued support of the hobby. JD

[John RuddParticipant @johnrudd16576]

 

Posted by Jeff Dayman on 14/10/2015 12:44:07:

Ketan, I may be naive about what suppliers might agree to but is it possible to ask the suppliers to supply the lathes with a bit more powerful motor than the competition, and feature that in your adverts? JD

Jeff,

My first mini mill was one of Chesters offerings with a 550w motor….brushed at that….it does its job….I then decided to buy another,this time I bought the Sieg machine from Ketan…..Main reason was that I know technically the advantages of brushless over brushed motors….even though the hp power figures were similar…

 

Edited By John Rudd on 14/10/2015 13:20:26

Edited By John Rudd on 14/10/2015 13:23:49

[Ketan SwaliParticipant @ketanswali79440]

Hi Steven,

The issue is comparison of like with like – brushed motor from one manufacturer with brushed motor of another.

When SIEG came out with brushless motor – totaly different animal for power and programed torque, the brushed motor competitors had to re-invent the story because they started to lose sales. So they started to bring in the word such as 'Super', and re-introduce the same machines with 'different' motor wattage figures. Some even gave their machines a new paint job, Mark II, botox by way of additional steel plate – like botox implants – the Optimum machine being discussed in another thread being a good example – but its German you know!..Underneath their machines, it is still the same old electronics business as usual – regardless of what they care to say.

As you say, the brushed motor and electronics are cheaper than the brushless, so I really fail to see the real reasons for the marketing hype. There is scope for each type, and there are other good, limited or bad attributes to every machine including gearing, belt drive, table travel, weight and assembly.

We still do two machines – the SX1L and C0 which work on brushed motor systems. There is nothing wrong with them. Rest of the machines we choose to sell from SIEG are with brushless motors.

NOTE: The brushed motor SX1L has the word 'Super' which has been in place for a very long time. Rest of the models which we sell with the word 'Super' we have had to clarify with addition of the words 'HiTorque brushless motor' after certain competitors decided to re-introduce their brushed motor machines with the word 'Super' to suggest that it is the same as what we sell, with supposedly higher wattage brushed motor, at a cheaper price. What need do they have to do this?. May be we might have to re-introduce some of the other brushed motor versions, presented in a lower price bracket for comparison of like with like. I have to think about that.

Thanks, Ketan at ARC.

[Clive FosterParticipant @clivefoster55965]

No way can an honest supplier hope to win in a specification war with competitors willing to fabricate figures pretty much out of thin air. Better to concentrate on the intangibles by careful writing re-enforcing the trusted, reliable supplier image. Ketan already has the reputation of going a bit further and a bit better than the other guy which will help a lot.

How about :-

"Durable long life motors rated industrial style for continuous running at maximum output power as per specification … Anticipated lifetime in excess of 20,000 hours in normal use, thats about 20 years if used for 2 hours every weekday night and 8 hours at weekends."

"Sophisticated matched motor and driver combinations permitting short term overloads up to … hp when needed without risking premature drive failure or motor burn out due to excessive overdriving as can occur with less sophisticated or poorly matched components."

"Durable replacement motor and drive combinations supplied separately to replace prematurely failed units on similarly configured machines from other suppliers. May need brackets or adapters fabricated. Download this pdf for motor, shaft and fittings dimensions."

OK writing advertising, website or catalogue copy is so not my thing but you get the idea. Used to be "Can't go wrong buying IBM." so now try for "Can't go wrong buying Arc Euro".

Clive.

[Ketan SwaliParticipant @ketanswali79440]

Clive Foster, if I wrote like that, it would make me an 'advanced marketing exspert' in line with the hype I read in certain catalogues and sites. I would need to be seriously ill to do that.

I think I will stick to the plan of trying to find out more, and post information here, our site and possibly in the new catalogue when it comes out next year, keeping to plain English, in line with suggestions made by many on this thread.

Ketan at ARC.

[mark costello 1Participant @markcostello1]

Best recommendation I have heard for a while "going a bit further and a bit better."

[AjohnwParticipant @ajohnw51620]

Posted by Neil Wyatt on 14/10/2015 11:19:00:

What on earth are about John?

A prony brake is entirely mechanical and can be used to accurately measure the output power of any rotating shaft..

… and if you mean Ketan's link the meter has got "Fluke True RMS Meter" written on it – and fluke aren't cheap or crap…

I very much doubt if that style of meter off anybody can measure true rms correctly unless it's a pure sine wave draw. I must admit from the the frequency range spec of the 317 it's better than I would expect but it could still not be good good enough to give accurate readings when the draw is pulses / lop sided etc.

I thought the brake related to the link – silly me.

There is another silly aspect to the test the link shows. The power of a lathe motor isn't when it cuts out. It's when it can do several hours of work with very short breaks without cutting out. The problem with motors is that work heats them up quickly and they loose it more slowly. That needs including as well really. It's a common issue with diy tools.

One answer to Ketan's problem might be to involve these people

**LINK**

I've no idea what the costs would be but it could be an answer that would stop the sort of things that are going on. The lathes probably already go through some approvals so it would be a case of establishing realistic physical factors should they offer to do some form of approval procedures on things like motor power and other aspects. They could do this sort of thing in the past and have done. Not sure currently. I've only submitted things to them to prove that an adequate approach has taken to produce a reliable product that should work without problems. Mostly technical talk and a walk round. Safety critical stuff in other words that they could not realistically check themselves.

John

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[Ketan SwaliParticipant @ketanswali79440]

John W,

The people you suggest in the link are used by many, and there are plenty of such operations out there. They and/or people like them carry out tests for SIEG, as part of the CE – EMC directive amongst others. The technical issue is separate from the marketing issue.

The test shown in the link on SIEGs website was a simple method which is practised by various people around the world. The more technical method involving temperature and specific motor testing machine is performed by the motor making arm of the SIEG factory. I hope to get more information in time.

Silly or otherwise, the SIEG link is far more open and clear. The machine in question has a 350W output motor. The same/similar output motor is blatantly stated as 550W power on a well known site, along with colourful marketing language to invite the prospective buyer. That is their job and they feel comfortable with it. I dare say that the prospective buyer is happy too. As I suggested before, they can still state that and get away with it for marketing…perfectly legal with what ever paperwork you want to supply with the lathe. Shame the paper is not absorbent, because it cant be even used as toilet paper.

Ketan at ARC.

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