Milling – what do i need

[russellParticipant @russell]

Hi All

 

I am contemplating a mill purchase. Possibly a VMC type (6×26 in american parlance i think?) – see Standaco DM15. (any other Oz recommendations?)

 

Apart from the mill itself, what else should i consider as a minimum to be generally useful? A vise? clamp kit? face cutter? Rotary table?

 

I dont want to blow my budget and find i can’t actually use it.. This is definitely at the upper end of my price range, but i have taken on board advice to get the most solid i can manage.

 

Consider the requirement to be for general hobbiest, including tool manufacture and components for small (non-railway) type engines.

 

I am also considering a 3-phase version, with a VFD like ebay 280735292600

any comments on that?

 

thanks!

[russellParticipant @russell]

Recommended ‘starter kit’?

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

You will also want :

 

Drill chuck with arbor for a drawbar

 

Some method of holding milling cutters – an ER32 type chuck and range of collets would be the most versatile.

 

DTI and magnetic stand if you don’t already have one so the vise and work can be set true to the mill axis.

 

Edge finder, I use the electronic type that light up as you touch the surface

 

Slitting saw arbor would be handy and/or a stub milling arbor that will also tak ethings like gear cutters.

 

The variable speed would be nice if you can afford it.

 

J

[1Participant @1]

I have recently started using my milling machine and I would say yes to the best milling vice you can run to, clamp kit and cutters as you mention and also the items JB listed. The rotary table I have managed without up to now but it is definitely on my wish list for when I have figured out how to fix my lathe chuck to one and how to use it.

 

Something I use a lot is a set of parallels to set my workpiece either above the vice jaws or table as appropriate. (I also use some car wheel bearing races for this purpose; they are worn out bearings with the balls and cages knocked out and came free from the garage where my car is serviced)

 

Jim

[Jim GuthrieParticipant @jimguthrie82658]

Posted by russell on 12/09/2011 05:22:56:

Apart from the mill itself, what else should i consider as a minimum to be generally useful? A vise? clamp kit? face cutter? Rotary table?

Russell,

 

Apart from what others have recommended I would add a good shop vacuum cleaner to clean up the table and surrounds. It migth not work too well if you will intend to use a lot of cutting fluid, but for dry cutting it makes cleaning an easy process. I got a cheap, bagless model from a chain store in the UK for about £30 and I wouldn’t be without it now.

 

Jim.

Edited By Jim Guthrie on 12/09/2011 13:31:23

[Sub MandrelParticipant @submandrel]

Harold Hall’s first milling book is possibly a good idea. Accessories for the mill that you can make using the mill.

 

Mills seem to need less tweaking and accessories than lathes, but the ones I have found useful are (in no order):

 

dividing head

rotary table

ER25 chuck

Various vices and clamps

flycutter

 

Neil

[TerrydParticipant @terryd72465]

Hi there Russell,

 

I would second Neil’s advice. The first thing to get is Harold Halls book (see here for the best price). That will help you to make the tee nuts and clamps that you need without undue expense. Of course you need some kind of tool holder and cutters but forget about the esoteric rotary table, dividing heads etc etc until you really need, and cannot possibly manage without them. That knowledge will come with experience.

 

If you read Harold Hall you will find that you don’t even need a vice. Most work can be done directly on the table with a variety of tee nuts, clamps and angle plate etc.

 

Don’t waste money on unnecessary geegaws until you find that you cannot find a way to manage without. Remember that the pioneers of engineering did magnificent work without all this stuff, they had ingenuity not stuff. I suggest that you read the history of the blacksmith Henry Maudslay to see how they managed

 

Best regards and good engineering,

 

Terry

Edited By Terryd on 15/09/2011 22:42:49

[Ian S CParticipant @iansc]

See if you can get the supplier to through in a clamping set, over here a vice comes as standard, its not brilliant, but it works. It helps if you get to know the staff at the shop, and you pay cash, I seem to be able to get something as a dicount. some times its the threat of going some where else that helps. When I bought my lathe, it took about two months, and I got it at the place I tried first, but for nearly half the price. Ian S C

[russellParticipant @russell]

thanks all.

 

the machine i’m looking at is 3 phase, R8, with drill chuck, face mill arbour (i assume not the face mill), and a reasonable swivel vise, clamp kit, at a fair discount. Not sure if it is metric or imperial, i guess metric.

 

I’ll get a 3phase VFD converter, and an R8 chuck for my ER25 collets.

 

 

I’ve been doing a lot of research, and am fairly comfortable that the style of mill (turret, knee) will meet my needs. Based on replies, i think i will be set to start work at least.

 

– russell

[Armando MenesesParticipant @armandomeneses27262]

Hello.
Hope I’m not making a mistake when placing my doubts here.
This matter came right on time. I am also thinking of buying a milling machine. He liked your opinion. I’m thinking about buying one of these two, http://www.warco.co.uk/milling-machines/32-wm-16-variable-speed-milling-machine.html, http://www.warco.co.uk/milling-machines/33 wm-18-variable-speed-milling–machine.html.
What can you say?

Thanks

Armando Meneses

[John HaineParticipant @johnhaine32865]

Don’t bother with separate chuck, buy R8 collets that fit directly in the arbor. Much more rigid, hold better, and more working height.

[KWILParticipant @kwil]

The problem with direct R8 collets is that they are set sizes only, whereas an ER series collet setwill each clamp effectively over a wide range, including drill sizes. That said I would still have a drill chuck as well.

[Geoff TheasbyParticipant @geofftheasby]

I have just bought a Warco WM14, it is everything I think I need. A good vice and set of clamps is necessary, I found the clamps and studs supplied were far too long, and made my own from M8 studding bought at Screwfix, together with 1/2 x 3/4 MS bar from Chronos, suitably drilled to match.

I am told that I do not need an ER collet chuck, just direct MT2 collets for each end mill, in my case free with the machine. They work fine.

 

I agree that a small vacuum cleaner will be necessary, I am deep in swarf already.

 

Regards

Geoff Theasby

[Paul LousickParticipant @paullousick59116]

I have just purchased a Seig SX3 and have made some of the accessories for it.

BUT have also spent heaps on extras. (Cutters, vice, DRO, etc)

At the moment I am building Harold Hall’s cutter grinding jig.

If you want to set up the mill, allow as you spent on the mill for tooling.

Paul L.

[WolfieParticipant @wolfie]

OK I also am a beginner thats just bought a mill. I bought an Amadeal XJ12 and apart from an initial teething problem its been fine, I’m pleased with it.

 

I also bought an ER25 collet set and a box of cutters, that is all. My clamping set was made with the mill as per Harolds book mentioned above and my next project is the grinding rest from the book mentioned by Paul there.

 

The book also has plans for a dividing head which is next on my list after the rest.

 

[David LittlewoodParticipant @davidlittlewood51847]

Russell,

 

Agree with a lot of the above, but some thoughts:

 

(1) Never use a drill chuck for holding milling cutters; if the cutter is subject to sideways force it will “walk” out of the chuck and probably ruin both tool and job.

 

(2) For that reason, you don’t need a drawbar on a drill chuck shank, in fact it’s probably a bad idea as it takes several times longer to remove a tool with a drawbar in it.

 

(3) ER collets are entirely suitable for holding milling cutters, and are by miles the most versatile type of collet you can get. They also have the added attraction that you will be able to get a chuck for using the same set in your lathe.

 

(4) Harold may be right that you can do anything without a milling vice – but you risk dying of old age. There are a myriad jobs involving drilling small items which can be done in a minute with a milling vice, will drive you mad without.

 

(5) A set of parallels for supporting small items in the drilling vice will be invaluable – you need a selection. I have a purchased set, but they are often too thin; the best ones I made myself from 4″ lengths of gauge plate.

 

(6) Try to get a milling vice with a decent jaw opening – many of them are real tight-arses with a maximum gap very small relative to their overall size.

 

(7) For working on tiny items a sub-table is a real benefit; this can be drilled and tapped, or otherwise hacked about, for holding down clamps as you wish.

 

(8) The most versatile table clamps I have are step clamps, you can adjust them over a wide range of heights.

 

David

Edited By David Clark 1 on 29/01/2012 18:33:12

[dcostaParticipant @dcosta]

Hello Armando Meneses.

 

Please read a message I left to You in Your box.

 

Best regards

Dias Costa

 

 

[John HaineParticipant @johnhaine32865]

If you are getting a big mill and it has an R8 spindle option I would recommend it. R8 collets are relatively cheap and you don’t need many to fit the standard cutter shanks. They grip like mad, you get better rigidity, and more working height. I have never missed the so-called “convenience” of an ER chuck.

 

I almost never use a machine vice though I bought a Vertex one with my VMB mill. Either I clamp stuff straight on the table or use an angle plate. A 4-jaw chuck is a very useful vice for a mill for small parts – remove from the back plate and bolt down through the normal clamping holes. Make / buy as many toolmakers clamps as you can in a range of sizes up to say 6 inch – incredibly useful to clamp parts to the angle plate. Angle plates are dead easy to set up – most of the time you can get enough accuracy with a good set square off the table edge. Dialing in a vice is a pain.

 

I’ve got 2 rotary tables bought over the years but hardly ever used. Get one when/if you need it (or borrow one).

 

A good clamping kit is a boon.

 

So to start I would recommend: R8 collets for 1/4, 3/8, 1/2, 5/8 shanks (and/or metric equivalents); clamping kit to match your Tee slots; a good angle plate preferably machined all over (i.e. both inside and outside the angle) about 6 inches long and 4 inches high – but note you can buy a casting from College Engineering, good practice to make your own. Fit a vertical fence on one machined end – very quick to set both an edge and a face vertical. When you’ve finished the plate you can make some parallels from BMS bar. Harold Hall gives instructions for machining both angle plates and parallels.

 

You could also buy a set of castings to make a machine vice from CES…

 

Hope this helps…

 

John.

[Keith Wardill 1Participant @keithwardill1]

This thread might be some help:-

http://www.model-engineer.co.uk/forums/postings.asp?th=63780

 

To Geoff Theasby – I do exactly what you do, but there are some conflicting opinions in the above thread – might interest you. (- can’t find a ‘tongue-in-cheek’ emoticon – bummer!)

[Chris TriceParticipant @christrice43267]

Posted by David Littlewood on 29/01/2012 12:51:19:

(2) For that reason, you don’t need a drawbar on a drill chuck shank, in fact it’s probably a bad idea as it takes several times longer to remove a tool with a drawbar in it.

You do if it’s an R8 mount as on many machines. Although morse tapers don’t strictly need it, I’d still use a draw bar in a vertical machine. Also unscrewing the drawbar a couple of turns and then tapping with a mallet makes chuck removal very easy. Don’t overtighten though or you could damage the spindle bearings getting it loose again.

Edited By Chris Trice on 29/01/2012 18:56:08

[David LittlewoodParticipant @davidlittlewood51847]

Chris,

 

Yes, sorry, I should have taken care to explain I was talking about MT shanks there! It was because of the problems caused by over-tightening that I recommended not using a drawbar with them.

 

David

[Francis SykesParticipant @francissykes95134]

I bought an SPG tools R8 spindled machine before Christmas, and told people I wanted tooling (or contributions towards) for my machine as presents.

 

Anyway, I bough/obtainedt:

 

R8 metric collet set

Metric end mill and ball end mill set

M12 clamping set

150mm rotary table (an extravagance…)

R8 fly cutter set

R8 metric boring bar

100mm drilling vice (should have bought a milling vice probably..)

 

I had a DTI and stand already.

 

So I guess I bought my way into what I needed, but I started to think about the jobs I wanted the capability to do.

 

I got R8 as my understanding is that R8 tooling is available cheaply second hand, and I’ve got a friend with a Bridgeport, so borrowing his tooling is possible! I went for collets over an ER32 for the reasons already stated.

 

[TerrydParticipant @terryd72465]

Posted by David Littlewood on 29/01/2012 12:51:19:

Russell,

 

Agree with a lot of the above, but some thoughts:……………………….

 

(4) Harold may be right that you can do anything without a milling vice – but you risk dying of old age. There are a myriad jobs involving drilling small items which can be done in a minute with a milling vice, will drive you mad without…………..

 

 

David

Edited By David Clark 1 on 29/01/2012 18:33:12

 

Hi,

 

I agree that using a vice is easier, but a cheap (sorry – inexpensive) drilling vice is adequate for most small drilling jobs. A good milling vice is not as essential as other items and can be added as time and funds permits. Please don’t think that you must get every possible trinket in the beginning. Much is possible with the most basic kit, especially if you are just going to make small model stationary engines.

 

Best regards

 

T

[Francis SykesParticipant @francissykes95134]

I agree Terry, my drilling vice is okay (I used it to machine a nylon piece last time) – it does suffer jaw lift on tightening, I think it’ll do for work that doesn’t require the last word in precision (most of what I do at the moment!!) – but I think I may be saving the pennies for something better at some point.

 

Or better still, being patient and waiting for something decent to come up second hand at the right price.

[JonParticipant @jon]

Posted by John Haine on 29/01/2012 17:25:28:

If you are getting a big mill and it has an R8 spindle option I would recommend it. R8 collets are relatively cheap and you don’t need many to fit the standard cutter shanks. They grip like mad, you get better rigidity, and more working height. I have never missed the so-called “convenience” of an ER chuck.

John.

Totally agree it will be the best decision you will make.

Known as the 626 over here and limited on vertical travel. making even more sense.

 

As regards taking longer to remove and over tightening, i would say have you seen what an R8 collet can do, one pass through steel 1 1/4″ deep x 1″ x 1″ long without dropping and 18 of them side by side. I wouldnt attempt 3mm with any ER because i know what will happen having had to use the things at work for years on 3 other very different machines. Heavier jobs i used to take my MT collets in.

Also at least 6 times quicker to change a cutter over even with MT collets.

 

I would also say the extra forces generated by using whats in reality a leverage on the quill by using Er types would have a lot more forces than any hammer blows removing the tightest of MT3 collets and ER MT shanked tooling. When tightened up solid.

Even in this situation the cheap chinese throw away quill bearings (2) lasted 7 years hard abuse. Same machine at work using ER chuck never removed lasted 8 months before showed signs.

[Author]

Posts