Metric V Imperial Measurement

[John HaineParticipant @johnhaine32865]

Please could we have a moratorium on the hoary old topic?

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Yes lets get back to the Collet in questing and whether it is worth trying to machine it out to 1/4".

[Russell EberhardtParticipant @russelleberhardt48058]

Posted by JasonB on 08/02/2020 07:27:44:

Posted by Steviegtr on 07/02/2020 23:32:08:

pipe fittings are still in BSP.

Depends where you are getting them, most of the metric world works with "G" threads now

Well, here in France, where the metric system was invented, all threaded pipe fittings for domestic use, including taps etc., are BSP but sold by the thread diameter in the nearest whole number of mm.

Russell

[Eric CoxParticipant @ericcox50497]

"For what it's worth, in the mid 70s I was fortunate enough to be working as a ships draughtsman on the T22 frigate which became HMS Broadsword. This ship was all metric, and I was told that it was the first ship classified as "metric" to be designed and built by the MOD(N)"

Even Richard Burton worked in Imperial as he was always asking for the conversion  "Broadsword to Danny Boy"

Edited By Eric Cox on 08/02/2020 11:00:29

[Nick WheelerParticipant @nickwheeler]

Posted by Speedy Builder5 on 08/02/2020 07:20:59:

As my Dad used to say – Can you imagine a simple plate 1m x 1m, now put 1Kg load on that and slip your hand under one corner of it. No Can't imagine that. Now, take a simple plate 1ft x 1ft, place 1lb on the plate and do the same – yes, I could imagine that. But we move with the times.

Yes, and no in that order. And it's for the same reason you and he were the other way round, it's what we are all used to. The human brain isn't programmed to work in any of the entirely arbitrary units in use, but is trained to use whatever is favoured in that situation.

As for reverting to Imperial, what would be the point? Even America uses metric, they just fudge it by overlaying older units for everyday use.

[larry phelan 1Participant @larryphelan1]

Steviegtr,

I think it,s many a day since Britannia ruled the waves, or have you not noticed ?

Good while it lasted, but all good things come to an end.

Move with the times.

[Bob Unitt 1Participant @bobunitt1]

What's next on the agenda, reverting to Pounds, shillings and pence ?

Why go for half measures, bring back the Ell, Hogshead and Groat !!!

[Andrew TinsleyParticipant @andrewtinsley63637]

I am never too sure why metric versus imperial gets so emotive. I work in both sets of units and have metric and imperial kit. I move between one and the other without barely noticing.

Andrew.

[Brian HParticipant @brianh50089]

Plus one for Andrew Tinsley's comment.

I usually work in Imperial because I model old engines that were made in Imperial measurements but if I were to model a continental engine then I would use metric measurements. What's the problem?

Brian

[Mick HenshallParticipant @mickhenshall99321]

As I remember in the Queen's Navy "Scantlings" were used when measurements were considered, and thickness of steel plate was measured in pounds weight, eg a 12" x12" x1" thick weighed 40 lbs,1/2" thick 20lbs,1/8" plate weighed 5lbs and so on, I only use imperial and at my age will continue to do so

Mick 🇫🇴

[John BaronParticipant @johnbaron31275]

Posted by Andrew Tinsley on 08/02/2020 11:42:31:

I am never too sure why metric versus imperial gets so emotive. I work in both sets of units and have metric and imperial kit. I move between one and the other without barely noticing.

Andrew.

+Another 1

[S.D.L.Participant @s-d-l]

Posted by Brian H on 08/02/2020 11:56:04:

Plus one for Andrew Tinsley's comment.

I usually work in Imperial because I model old engines that were made in Imperial measurements but if I were to model a continental engine then I would use metric measurements. What's the problem?

Brian

Even that is a simple choice of preference.

model railways have been 4mm and 7mm to the foot for decades.

nothing to stop some one modelling 10mm to the foot, convert to decimal inches and divide by 10.

but do whatever suits you best

steve

[Gerard O’TooleParticipant @gerardotoole60348]

Posted by Steviegtr on 07/02/2020 22:56:00:

Wouldn't it be awesome if we went back to imperial. Stuff the rest of the world. Rule BRITANNIA. Britannia rules the waves.

Steve.

I am always open to be converted.

Can you tell me what advantages using the Imperial measurement system would afford me?

[martin perman 1Participant @martinperman1]

I did my engineering in metric and following employment but my hobby of stationary engines has me working in imperial as I did at school. The one thing I find in metric is there are less decimal points to work with than when using imperial.

Martin P

[Mick B1Participant @mickb1]

Posted by John Baron on 08/02/2020 12:16:47:

Posted by Andrew Tinsley on 08/02/2020 11:42:31:

I am never too sure why metric versus imperial gets so emotive. I work in both sets of units and have metric and imperial kit. I move between one and the other without barely noticing.

Andrew.

+Another 1

Yep, and one more…

[geoff adamsParticipant @geoffadams14047]

worked in the aircraft industry for many years making instruments the only machines that could use mertic where the cncs which i programmed all the manual machines in the shop where english drawing office produced a metric instrument drawing really funny dims 3.175 reamed hole guess what its an 1/8 dims all other the drawing like this it was an english to metric conversion .we had to work with europe (concord) and america had to use both the metric and english dims and easiest system is metric but i still convert back to english for tolerances english and american threads are nightmare give me metric all day long and iam old school

Geoff

[GeorgineerParticipant @georgineer]

Posted by John Haine on 08/02/2020 10:07:29:

Please could we have a moratorium on the hoary old topic?

Not till a few of us have finished stirring the pot. I enjoy pointing out that the avoirdupois pound people are so determinedly trying to save is actually French. The English, or Tower, pound was abolished in the reign ofKing Henry VIII.

George B.

[Ray LyonsParticipant @raylyons29267]

I went up to the shed this afternoon to have a look at two other routers which have 1/4" collets but neither will fit the new palm router. I have now contacted the supplier to see they have spare 1/4" collets.

What A pot I seem to have stirred with this one, great to see so much interest. For myself, I learned my trade as a carpenter but changed in my early 20s to enter the oil industry. In the old measurements, I could guess many timber sizes by just looking but now when I go into a builders merchant it feels all new and I am lost.

[Mick B1Participant @mickb1]

I can remember a draughtsman in an engineering department I once worked in who added a dimension to a drawing: 14,0 mm +0/-0-.003".

Everyone laughed at him most cruelly, but he was a good bloke. He'd been on high-altitude aerial reconnaissance during the war (WW2) and attributed his shortness of breath to that.

I thought it was more likely the fags.

But hey, that was the 70s, and loads of people smoked all the time and nearly everywhere.

[SteviegtrParticipant @steviegtr]

Posted by Mick B1 on 08/02/2020 18:21:07:

I can remember a draughtsman in an engineering department I once worked in who added a dimension to a drawing: 14,0 mm +0/-0-.003".

That just brought back a memory. I called into the Air conditioning company that we did work for. They had 3 draughftsmen in there office. All drawing ducting etc for the air con systems they installed. The next time the Boss called in on us I showed him Autocad, I used for electrical drawings. I gave him a demo drawing a length of ducting with dimensions & then saved it as a block. He was amazed. 3 months later I went back to there offices again. Sat in the corner was a brand new A0 pen plotter & a new pc package with autocad running. Sadly only 1 draughtsman. The price of tech.

Steve.

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

I used to be a draughtsman at an air conditioning company, until some smart-ass came in and demonstrated Autocad to the boss.

If I ever track down that guy, he's toast…

[Alistair Robertson 1Participant @alistairrobertson1]

When discussing pipe threads it is good to remember that most of the world uses variations of BSP even though they call them something different. For instance 2" BSP is variously called in.

France = Gas conique.

Czech Republic = G Kon.

Belgium = G conique.

Switzerland = Gc.

Norway = Gj.

Denmark = Krg.

Plus about 20 countries who use the G designation but specify them in metric dimensions!

I have a copy of the "Robertson Guide To World Threads" which is a superb source of the obscure threads but even it is stumped sometimes!

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

One reason the great debate gets heated is because the two sides come to it from opposite positions. Support for imperial is emotional whilst support of Metric is logical.

Imperial measure developed before mankind understood there were important relationships between weight, length, and time. As a result, Imperial caters for ordinary life circumstances where these relationships don't matter; buying a pound of spuds, drinking a pint of beer, waiting an hour for a bus, turning a bar on a lathe to a thou etc.

But coping well with ordinary-life weights and measure doesn't mean Imperial is good for everything else. Far from it. As a system, Imperial is internally inconsistent, which means advanced calculations are muddled by unnecessary conversions.

Imperial also causes logical confusion between, for example: mass and weight, and pressure and force. It deals poorly with Energy, Work, Power because the units used don't relate cleanly. For example, force is often measured in foot-pounds, or ounce inches, it's hard to defend a system where 1 ounce inch = 0.005208 pound foot. And Electricity has never been metric. Whilst Imperial's internal inconsistencies rarely matter in a shed or on the factory floor, they do in science and high-technology!

Bad reasons for supporting Imperial to the exclusion of metric:

1. Believing Imperial is superior to anything foreign because it's English. Or that it's somehow a patriotic symbol, like the Union Flag, and the National Anthem.
2. Assuming the ordinary part of the Imperial system represents the whole. It doesn't. Ignorance may be bliss, but it's no defence!
3. Conviction the system worked well when Britain was workshop of the world, and therefore abandoning Imperial measure caused Britain's relative industrial decline. (Americans may substitute USA for Britain!)
4. Personally comfortable with Imperial and don't personally need to replace it. Therefore no else needs better.
5. Fear of learning something new.
6. Not understanding or caring that Imperial's structural faults make life difficult for others, even if they are the Designers, Engineers, and other brainy folk keeping your pension fund afloat!
7. The conviction that all change is bad, or things were better in the good old days.
8. You are a politician!

Best reason I know of to stick with Imperial is backward compatibility. Scale modelling Imperial prototypes, hobby working from Imperial Plans, mending Imperial machines, and making items to fit modern specifications based on Imperial all qualify. Otherwise, Imperial ain't smart.

Here's a challenge for Imperial supporters. Your mission is to use this forum to persuade France, Germany or Japan to dump Metric in favour of Imperial. What will you say to convince any of them to make the switch?

Dave

[Alan JacksonParticipant @alanjackson47790]

America used to say they would change to the metric system if there was a buck in it. Sounds good sense.

Alan

[JAParticipant @ja]

Posted by Alan Jackson on 09/02/2020 12:34:55:

America used to say they would change to the metric system if there was a buck in it. Sounds good sense.

Alan

How much does not being in step with the rest of the World cost American business?

There is a third, quiet, group in this discussion who could not careless what system is used.

JA

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