Making a superglue chuck adapter for brass wheel

[Chris TickTockParticipant @christicktock]

Hi, Clickspring makes his clock wheel blanck by supergluing his brass rough cut to an adapter. Question I have a Sherline lathe is machining an aluminium adapter suitable and are rings needed to aid the glue setting as an old post stipulates/

Chris

[Chris TickTockParticipant @christicktock]

[John HaineParticipant @johnhaine32865]

Chris, why don't you try it for yourself and report back?

[Jens Eirik Skogstad 1Participant @jenseirikskogstad1]

I've used super glue to hold parts on the self-made flat disc that can't be attached to the chuck. Holds very well without being knocked out by turns from turning tools. Released by heat from torch lamp.

[Chris TickTockParticipant @christicktock]

Posted by Jens Eirik Skogstad on 23/12/2019 22:24:44:

I've used super glue to hold parts on the self-made flat disc that can't be attached to the chuck. Holds very well without being knocked out by turns from turning tools. Released by heat from torch lamp.

Thanks Jens, does your adapter have rings to help the glue dry and if so what spacings?

Chris

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by Chris TickTock on 23/12/2019 21:53:42:

[…] are rings needed to aid the glue setting as an old post stipulates/

Chris

.

Chris

Could you please let me know where you saw that post ?

… Frankly, I don’t understand the stipulation.

Rings [grooves] are often turned on the chuck as an aid to rough centring the work, but I have never heard of them being used to aid setting of super-glue [which is typically anaerobic curing]

MichaelG.

[Jens Eirik Skogstad 1Participant @jenseirikskogstad1]

I has rings on disc, but the surface must not be polished to get the super glue into the surface and keep better. After the surface is applied with super clue, press the part well on disc then spray accelerator on glue. Then the part is ready to work with lathe. Not in lathe only. You can glue the two parts to example steam chest and cover plate exactly positioned before drill the hole or mill on the side with two parts in same time etc.. then the place of drill hole and size of measure is exactly in both parts.

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Posted by Michael Gilligan on 23/12/2019 22:59:50:

Posted by Chris TickTock on 23/12/2019 21:53:42:

[…] are rings needed to aid the glue setting as an old post stipulates/

Chris

.

Chris

Could you please let me know where you saw that post ?

… Frankly, I don’t understand the stipulation.

Rings [grooves] are often turned on the chuck as an aid to rough centring the work, but I have never heard of them being used to aid setting of super-glue [which is typically anaerobic curing]

MichaelG.

The rings aid in setting and positioning the work centrally on the plate not in helping the glue set, just like rings on a 4-jaw chuck.

Chris, they are not mandatory but do help particularly if your workpiece is close to size and needs to be "set" almost concentric.

 

J

Edited By JasonB on 24/12/2019 06:55:17

[Jens Eirik Skogstad 1Participant @jenseirikskogstad1]

Thin workpiece is not easy to turn on 4 jaw chuck. Use the center of the tailstock to center the workpiece who has punch mark or hole before light pressing it into place on the disc and allowing the superglue to dry. Then the workpiece is centered.

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by JasonB on 24/12/2019 06:53:52:

Posted by Michael Gilligan on 23/12/2019 22:59:50:

Posted by Chris TickTock on 23/12/2019 21:53:42:

[…] are rings needed to aid the glue setting as an old post stipulates/

Chris

.

Chris

Could you please let me know where you saw that post ?

… Frankly, I don’t understand the stipulation.

Rings [grooves] are often turned on the chuck as an aid to rough centring the work, but I have never heard of them being used to aid setting of super-glue [which is typically anaerobic curing]

MichaelG.

The rings aid in setting and positioning the work centrally on the plate not in helping the glue set, just like rings on a 4-jaw chuck.

Chris, they are not mandatory but do help particularly if your workpiece is close to size and needs to be "set" almost concentric.

 

J

.

Yes, I know that, Jason

… I was asking Chris for the source of the post that stipulated otherwise.

MichaelG.

.

Edit: It’s perhaps worth mentioning that if your want to accurately centre the work [by positioning it whilst it is rotating] … the traditional Shellac ‘Wax’ is more suitable than superglue, as it remains sufficiently fluid until it cools.

 

Edited By Michael Gilligan on 24/12/2019 08:16:08

[IanTParticipant @iant]

I was going to mention the very good articles on using wax chucks quite recently in MEW (or was it ME?).

I don't have the magazines to hand (or I would name the Author) but if he reads this, then thank you – I enjoyed reading them and will try some of the different methods you mention.

Regards,

IanT

PS Shellac can be purchased from Cousins UK – you'll need to get the semi-clear kind, which comes as a 'stick'.

[Andrew TinsleyParticipant @andrewtinsley63637]

I use shellac in the form of flakes. Much easier to use than iso cyanoacrylate. Easier to centre as it doesn't grab and lower temperature required to fix and remove an object.

Andrew.

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Chapter V of this book, which I have recommended before, provides a lot of useful information about the use of ‘Cement Chucks’ … [although, unsurprisingly, nowt about superglue].

**LINK**

https://archive.org/details/watchmakerslathe00good

MichaelG.

Edited By Michael Gilligan on 24/12/2019 10:07:11

[Bob StevensonParticipant @bobstevenson13909]

The best way to work on clock wheels is to use an off-cut of clear plastic sheet about 8 to 10 mil thick…it's not critical…cut roughly square (I use a rectangular piece now)….mark scored lines from corner to corner and mount in 4-jaw eoughly centred. Bore out to exactly the INSIDE dimension of the crossings you wish to make,….then cut a 'rebate' to exactly accept the wheel with a snug push-fit….thus the wheel is exactly mounted on centre of lathe….

Now bore the centre whole to fit the wheel collet you have made…….

Now remove from lathe and use the internal diameter as the filing guage for the inside of the crossings…the file will slip nicely off of the plastic as you get to the right place……a steel straight edge can be bolted across the piece so the the 'spokes' of the crossings can also be filed accurately.

The wheel can be put back in the lathe at any time by 'clocking' the inside bore of the plastic holder.

[speelwerkParticipant @speelwerk]

I do not use a wax chuck since most of the time it can be done a different way but here is someone who does: **LINK** . About the concentric circles he writes : "the grooves allow the shellac to enter and bind the work piece to the chuck" , which I think is total nonsens. Niko.

[Martin Hamilton 1Participant @martinhamilton1]

Chris i recently made an 82mm diameter back plate for a chuck on my Sherline. I started with a round billet that was 90mm diam x 15 mm thick, i super glued the billet to a face plate & turned it with no problems at all. I was surprised how strongly it was bonded to the face plate when it was time to break the bond, used heat in the normal way but the bond was so strong. A lot more heat was needed to break the bond & this was with the parts held in the vice so plenty of force could be applied, even tapping with a hammer & more heat finally broke the bond, i didn't actually use that much super glue but i suppose it was over a wide area being the part diameter was around 3" diam. I would deff use even less glue next time.

[IanTParticipant @iant]

Just checked my back issues for "Making & Using Wax Chucks"

The Author was Tony Bird and the three articles were published in ME (not MEW) in late October & November.

Numbers 4623 to 4625

Regards,

IanT

[Chris TickTockParticipant @christicktock]

i appreciate all replies and will note all for future reference. like bob's plastic idea. On the clock forum some spli opinion as to glue or arbours with an opinion that it really comes often down to the wheel in question.

Happy Xmas / break to all

Chris

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by Michael Gilligan on 23/12/2019 22:59:50:

Posted by Chris TickTock on 23/12/2019 21:53:42:

[…] are rings needed to aid the glue setting as an old post stipulates/

Chris

.

Chris

Could you please let me know where you saw that post ?

[…]

.

I would be very interested to read the actual post

MichaelG.

[JimmehParticipant @jimmeh]

When I need to machine thin parts I start by placing a scrap piece of aluminium in the chuck, before facing it and adding a bunch of grooves (by eye). After using the chuck I give it a little skim to remove any glue retained on the surface. This also tends to break away glue from the grooves as well.

My take on the grooves is that they provide space for excess glue/wax to run into so that the part is pressed right up against the face of the chuck. I centre parts using a tailstock centre, and keep the tailstock pressed up against the part till the glue has set.

James

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Michael this is where it may have come from. See "making the chuck"

The only way the grooves may help in some way is to allow excess to flow into the grooves much like water under a car tyre so you only have a thin layer between the chuck and part which will go off faster than if there was too much glue.

Edit James beat me to it with his thoughts on the grooves

Worth mentioning that care should be taken if the lathe is started with wet glue on the chuck as it may get thrown where you don't want it.

 

Edited By JasonB on 24/12/2019 20:02:57

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by JasonB on 24/12/2019 19:55:01:

Michael this is where it may have come from. See "making the chuck"

[ …]

.

Thanks for the reference, Jason

I regret that I must disagree with Bill Morris on some points.

MichaelG.

[roy entwistleParticipant @royentwistle24699]

Re the point about fingers getting stuck together with superglue, I have found Superglue De-bonder from Tool Station or Screwfix works wonderfully

Roy

[Alan Wood 4Participant @alanwood4]

Chris at ClipSpring gives reference early on in his John Wilding Large Wheel Clock project to the late William Smith from the USA who perhaps did not originate but certainly popularised the use of a SuperGlue arbors in his series of clock making and tooling books.

Bill's books and videos are still available direct from the US and also from a UK outlet. Chris has expanded its use to fixture plates on the milling table to replace vacuum plates and magnetic equivalents. You will notice that in Chris's videos he still uses Bill's special concoction paste for metal polishing.

Bill suggests that standard single applicant SuperGlue goes off better at an air interface. (At the time of his authorship twin pack SuperGlue might not have been readily available). Bill postulates that having the grooves in the end face of the arbor increases the net length of air interface and therefore makes the bond stronger. Once stuck the finished wheel does take some removing and heat while recommended does have the effect of noxious fumes. I note the comment above that the grooves also perhaps allow 'squash distribution' of excess glue into the grooves to give a more flat/even fixing surface between the brass and the aluminium.

To answer the original question by TickTock and with apologies to the Grannies and their eggs : –

The arbor needs to be ideally the same diameter or ideally a bit less than the wheel OD being cut in order to allow the tooth cutter to pass through the brass and into the softer aluminium backing. The arbor's whole purpose is to provide support to the tooth cutting action.

The blank arbor should be mounted in the lathe chuck. (Once mounted it is not removed until the wheel is completely finished). After mounting the arbor, the grooves are cut into the end face. There is nothing magical about these but a 2-3mm gap (land) between grooves works OK and the depth can be similar. A rounded end cutter is a good profile to use cutting perpendicular to the arbor front surface. A hole is drilled into the centre of the arbor to be larger than the desired size of the finished hole in the wheel being cut.

Having cut both the grooves and the centre hole the arbor should be faced off. This removes any residual burrs that could 'push' the blank away from the surface and ensures that the face of the wheel blank will be axial to the lathe bed.

The arbor is slowly turned in the chuck and single pack SuperGlue is applied (not too excessively) onto the 'lands'. The chuck is stopped. The oversize wheel blank, having been degreased and having an undersized central hole is held in place by hand on the point of a centre in the tailstock and the tailstock is slid (not wound) to impact the blank onto the arbor face. The tailstock is locked in place and the handwheel wound quickly to apply pressure to the wheel blank against the face of the arbor and then the tailstock adjuster is locked in place. After 5 minutes the wheel will be fixed solidly. Some would recommend having the chuck slowly turning while this placement is done.

The blank is now turned to the specified OD for the wheel being cut. Cuts should not be aggressive as they will be applying a shearing force to the bond.

Once the wheel is cut to size the edge of the wheel is marked with a Sharpie pen or similar and then three adjacent teeth are cut back and forth until the marker inking disappears. This defines the depth of cut and the cutter now needs to be locked at this depth. The remaining teeth can now be cut and once all teeth are finished, the final action is to drill and ream the hole in the blank to size. This ensures concentricity of all processes in the wheel manufacture. (There is an immense feeling of relief when the final tooth is cut and it is the same size as the others … or alternately the neighbour's garden will receive an aluminum/brass addition for its Gnomes to play with).

Assuming success, the only problem now is getting the newly cut wheel off the arbor and heat or a solvent will be needed for this with due respect to any fumes.

The arbor can be stored for future use but will need an initial facing to clean off the prior use glue and grooves before repeating the process.

Hope that helps TickTock (and any others not yet elevated to Granny status).

Alan

[not done it yetParticipant @notdoneityet]

Seems OK except for this bit? (my underlining)

The arbor needs to be ideally the same diameter or ideally a bit less than the wheel OD being cut in order to allow the tooth cutter to pass through the brass and into the softer aluminium backing. The arbor's whole purpose is to provide support to the tooth cutting action.

From me while waiting for the next draining of goose fat from the tin…

[Author]

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