Machine registry

[not done it yetParticipant @notdoneityet]

Posted by Andrew Tinsley on 26/08/2018 19:06:07:

Many years ago, I used to make spares for the old BSA 12/15 0.22 rifles used by the local CCF. I made them because spares were unavailable. Nowadays I would suspect that I was breaking the law making firing pins etc.

Never gave it a thought in those days.

Andrew.

I doubt it. Do all gunmakers have to make every item for their product? Mind you, it might depend on what the “etc’” included.

One has to be a registered firearms dealer, but not so sure about a screw, or firing pin supplier. I expect most firearms dealers have responsible gunsmiths who are more than capable of making these small items as one, or few, offs.

[Andrew TinsleyParticipant @andrewtinsley63637]

Hello Mick,

You are correct, the firing pin didn't break. However the firing pin was part of a rectangular metal frame (just a slot milled in the rectangle). These frames broke across the slot, thus rendering the pin U/S.

I also made triggers and one sear, although this was a perfect pain and took ages to get right!

The 12/15 was a bit light for a competition rifle, but in the right hands could turn in a very good score.

Andrew.

[HopperParticipant @hopper]

How times change. My "one day" file includes an article from Model Engineer May 6, 1994, titled "A Victorian Lady's Friend" complete with drawings and instructions to make a full-sized single-shot .22 calibre pistol, with folding butt so it could be fitted into madam's purse, or muff.

The article contains the warning not to drill the hole up the barrel all the way through to meet the firing pin, lest it then be classified as a "real" firearm. In the drawing, the bore stops about an eighth of an inch short of the fully functional pin. Somehow, these days, I can't see our local plods buying that one. So methinks the article will stay in the file and not the workshop.

All rather moot of course when you consider the Boston Marathon bombing was done with match-heads stuffed in a pressure cooker. How much simpler could you get than that?

 

Edited By Hopper on 27/08/2018 12:28:58

[Mick B1Participant @mickb1]

Posted by Andrew Tinsley on 27/08/2018 11:21:24:

Hello Mick,

You are correct, the firing pin didn't break. However the firing pin was part of a rectangular metal frame (just a slot milled in the rectangle). These frames broke across the slot, thus rendering the pin U/S.

I also made triggers and one sear, although this was a perfect pain and took ages to get right!

The 12/15 was a bit light for a competition rifle, but in the right hands could turn in a very good score.

Andrew.

Back in the 60s, the rifle club I was in had at least 2 12/15s that they'd had from time immemorial and continued to use as club rifles, mainly for newcomers – and other clubs I knew of had similar. Some folks put big lumpy weights on the fore-end to make 'em weigh like proper competition rifles. I never heard of one ever failing.

Perhaps the cadets did something like dry firing? It would fit with practice at the time to release any spring loading before putting away – and I don't know if the Martini action offered any soft way of doing that. The CCF I was in had No.8s, which IIRC could be released like any Lee-Enfield by closing the bolt with the trigger pulled, with no risk of breaking anything.

[Andrew TinsleyParticipant @andrewtinsley63637]

Hello Mick,

The CCF had quite a large number of 12/15s, probably around 25 or more. I think having a bigger population of rifles showed up the odd weak points in the design. I also suspect that dry firing took place without benefit of empty cartridge case. For bolt action rifles I always use your trick of closing the bolt with the trigger depressed. I don't know if it works for a Martini action, I will check when I next use my BSA Mk2.

Andrew.

[JonParticipant @jon]

Posted by SillyOldDuffer

I wouldn't be against guns in private ownership if the gun community came up with a sensible way of preventing gun misuse. So far, they've failed to do this.

In all fairness rather than being one sided there are too strict laws already in place. Every one is vetted by the police, back ground checks, GP records, public profilies the lot. If ok this far have to pass interviews and make sure no one else not even your wife has access!
Therefore from this you can see any illegal activity is highly remote. Dunblane should we say was the police not doing their job, culprit flagged up years before as mentally unstable. Normal thing is police just turn up when persons flagged at any hour and remove all the weapons held. Same with two neighbours not even at a fighting stage, police turn up and remove one persons weapons he is licensed for.

Bottom line is people see gun crime and see legal use as one thing wanting to ban the lot. Cant ban illegal activity, laws are in place 50 odd years, its already highly illegal.
Any puporting shooting with a pistol, they were outlawed in 1997, they dont exist in England, Wales and Scotland.

Ireland as Ronan will confirm has its own laws whereby most put down for self protection. Big no in rest of UK.

[JonParticipant @jon]

Michael, technically any part of a registered weapon in someones posession is deemed illegal. Can be a screw, can be a spring.

Hopper that wouldnt cut it the last 15 years or more, proof house would require removing firing pin and machining out substantially the area it was fitted to so it would be impossible to reverse engineer.

RFD's are licensed to do the right thing at their discretion, a bit more than a Section 1.2 or 5 licence. If work cannot be obtained by another RFD, they have discretion under their licence to entrust certain work only on certain made parts. ie a bit of welding on a forend iron or removing a screw. Bottom line should part go missing RFD's accountable.

Certainly times have changed last decade or so.

Its just a case of knowing the laws and what not to produce for the lathe or mill owner. Cant legislate everything, nothing would exist not even a fork or untensil, the onus is on the person just like every other law in the land.

[HopperParticipant @hopper]

Posted by Jon on 27/08/2018 20:26:32:…

…Cant legislate everything, nothing would exist not even a fork or untensil,…

Very true that. We had a shocking local case where a teenaged couple picked up a hitchhiker who asked them to stop at an all night grocery store. He went in and bought a kitchen knife, got back in the car and proceeded to hold them hostage, rape, rob etc.

[pgk pgkParticipant @pgkpgk17461]

As the old saying goes.. it's not guns that kill – it's the folk with the guns. Interestingly switzerland has a very high gun ownership and very low homicide rate. So perhaps one should say it's not the guns .. its the type of people with the guns and cynically if you take their guns away you end up with more of those people…

pgk

[not done it yetParticipant @notdoneityet]

Posted by Jon on 27/08/2018 20:26:32:

Michael, technically any part of a registered weapon in someones posession is deemed illegal. Can be a screw, can be a spring.

That’s all right then – those blokes arrested recently didn’t have anything that was ‘registered’!

Highly likely they will get time for making guns, but the parts (screws and springs, etc) should be OK? Unless every part requires a registered serial number? Of course, every weapon should proof tested and that should flag up illegal weapons.

If I were a shotgun licence holder, I would expect to be able to make my own gun, with the knowledge of the authorities, without too much problem? It would require proof testing and registering, of course. How else do new gunmakers come into existence? More than likely one would need far more stringent checks than for the DBS (the defunct CRB), of course. Hand guns and rifles are a different ball game altogether. Where is the line drawn? Air weapons, under a suitable muzzle power, are not even licenced in England.

It is a lot harder to make one than, it seems, to acquire one illegally.

[SamsarandaParticipant @samsaranda]

Jon, yes pistols were outlawed in 1997 but they do still exist in private ownership for specific purposes, a friend of mine has a 357 magnum with a restricted number of chambers, it is held legally on his firearms certificate for the purpose of dispatching wounded game, deer etc. As has already been stressed in this thread it is not the guns that are dangerous but the persons who have access to them, I shoot clays every weekend and the checks made on the possession of shotguns are probably about as stringent as they could be.

Dave W

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Posted by pgk pgk on 28/08/2018 06:57:22:

As the old saying goes.. it's not guns that kill – it's the folk with the guns. Interestingly switzerland has a very high gun ownership and very low homicide rate. So perhaps one should say it's not the guns .. its the type of people with the guns and cynically if you take their guns away you end up with more of those people…

pgk

Yes, but Switzerland has suffered mass shootings too. In 2001 a man 'dressed in a police vest and laden with guns' entered a canton council meeting and shot dead 14, wounded 18 others and then shot himself.

The lady chair was shot three times and is now a paraplegic. She "lost two-thirds of her stomach, one kidney and much of her large intestine."

Switzerland is number 5 in the OECD homicide by shooting top ten:

Australia is a striking example of improvement after introducing strict gun controls. Tougher and more consistent laws after the Port Arthur massacre reduced their rate to 0.86 per 100000.

Mexico has tough gun laws – unfortunately unregulated firearms from the USA are easily smuggled over the border. President Trump's wall might help.

Guns are enormous fun and they make their owners feel powerful and important. There is some experimental evidence that the presence of a gun during an argument escalates aggression. I worry that the gun lobby are so keen to ignore negatives. Guns are far from harmless.

It's not about blame, it's about managing the risk. I don't think gun law is any different from boiler testing – if you want to run a model steam loco in public, you and the community have to take reasonable steps to ensure your hobby isn't going to injure bystanders.

Dave

[Clive HartlandParticipant @clivehartland94829]

The topic, 'Machine registry' is creating a situation that should never have been raised. Some well meaning jerk will see this and thinking only of himself and promotion will put forward a massive non working law just like the FAC laws.

To make guns you need barrels, you cannot buy barrels now, they will fall on you.

Like when i used to use plastic nosed shotshells for rat shooting with my .22 rifle. The plastic built up at the leed and would stop the shell from loading so I bought a .22 breech reamer for about £7.00. to clean out the build up.

many years later, 'Knock on the door', Mr. Plod, 'have you got a .22 breech reamer. 'Yes', long forgotten as I had sold the gun. searched for it, found it and put it in his hand and off he went.

They search for evidence everywhere, paper records and CCard receipts all give a way to find you! I would like to see this topic closed soon as gun statistics do not tell the whole story.

[Tony Pratt 1Participant @tonypratt1]

Totally agree Clive, this thread should be locked & forgotten about.

Tony

[Mick B1Participant @mickb1]

Posted by Clive Hartland on 28/08/2018 11:08:23:

…

Mr. Plod, 'have you got a .22 breech reamer. 'Yes', long forgotten as I had sold the gun. searched for it, found it and put it in his hand and off he went.

They search for evidence everywhere, paper records and CCard receipts all give a way to find you! I would like to see this topic closed soon as gun statistics do not tell the whole story.

I don't think Mr. Plod had any authority to demand you hand over your breech reamer – which is hardly more offensive than a bottle-brush – but it maybe didn't occur to you to refuse.

I bought all manner of paraphernalia for reloading and target shooting over about 40 years of a legitimate shooting hobby. I gave it up and sold or surrendered all controlled items years ago, and have never had any enquiry about any past purchases. So I don't know what it was may have prompted such an investigation in your case.

Like anyone, I know statistics can deliver massive distortions – but I don't think there's any reason to close down debate unless it becomes personal and/or abusive.

[CirclipParticipant @circlip]

I started the thread purely as a pre warning that the road to hell is littered with the misconceptions of those we "Vote" into command view as not "Normal" activities. It was suggested many years ago (certainly more than some of you can remember) that due to SOME miscreants that it may come to pass that Model engineering equipment may have to be registered. It was NOT started to discuss the manufacturing possibilities of firearms.

Having played with Radio Control using 3D6's and 125V HT and 1.5V LT supplies, we now find that due to SOME stupid p*****ks misusing "Drones", my free ability to fly a radio controlled GLIDER may be curbed and lumped in with the aforementioned without submitting a projected flight plan and vaulting through hoops to satisfy some ill conceived legislation from the unknowing lawmakers.

Make sure you know how to contact your local MP and be aware of the knee jerkers.

Regards Ian. .

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Posted by Circlip on 28/08/2018 15:24:52:

…

Having played with Radio Control using 3D6's and 125V HT and 1.5V LT supplies…

Now that took me down memory lane, I'm still saving my 3D6s for a rainy day!

The 3D6 was very popular in battery powered transmitters. With 135V on the anode a pair would give about 1W of RF out.

For the same physical size, the heavy silver-plated STC 4X150A on the right kicks bottom. With force air cooling through the fins and 2000V on the anode, it's good for 300W output, woof woof.

Not that the big valve was any good for Radio Control – no-one could afford the batteries!

Dave

[Mike PooleParticipant @mikepoole82104]

In more recent times the quality of our MPs has declined I feel, many have never done a proper job and I think youth and wisdom rarely go together. These factors among others have resulted in some poor quality legislation getting on to the statute books as a result of a knee jerk response by the inexperienced in life. As a motorcyclist I think access has been made more and more difficult over the years by legislation that is dressed up as making things safer which I feel is debatable but it has certainly made many people not bother and go straight to cars. The lid on the coffin of motorcycling is being nailed down one nail at a time, when the last nail goes in I doubt that anyone will go to the funeral.

Mike

[Mick B1Participant @mickb1]

Posted by Circlip on 28/08/2018 15:24:52:

…

It was suggested many years ago (certainly more than some of you can remember) that due to SOME miscreants that it may come to pass that Model engineering equipment may have to be registered.

…

Regards Ian. .

Yes, but I think we've still some way to go before that'd happen.

To me, it seems not so much due to deteriorating lawmakers as to a general deterioration of society. When I was young, lethal shooting sprees were almost unknown, motor bike law was only just tentatively enforcing the crash helmet and RC flying objects were only used by those technically capable enough to make and configure them.

Two things seem to have happened:-

i) Productisation of very many items has brought them within the economic scope of a very much larger proportion of the population than, say, 50 years ago. I could give you lots of examples of things possessed only by small numbers in my parents' generation which are now widespread.

ii) Social and political trends have emphasised the will of the individual. Compromise is regarded as weakness, and limiting of objectives as failure. I think this is what causes extreme reactions to frustration.

These are what give the stupid p*****ks the means and the motive to use what they are permitted to do to set themselves for something they're not. So the transgressions become more serious, and the only reaction lawmakers can have is to try to limit or complicate the acquisition of the means.

It's not really knee-jerk – it's all they have. And unless and until i) or ii) changes, it's all there can ever be.

[Clive HartlandParticipant @clivehartland94829]

If you want to include stupidity then consider the people of a lower neanderthal brain flying Drones in a restricted air space! I thought at first they maybe taking video of how clever they are but none of this type of video has surfaced. so what is the fun in flying a Drone in front of a landing aircraft ? Endangering the plane and also the passengers. The Police seem unable to catch these people and apart from putting up a denial radio cut off cap what can be done.?

[Mike PooleParticipant @mikepoole82104]

Perhaps a drone shoot could be an alternative to a clay shoot?

Mike

[Trevor Crossman 1Participant @trevorcrossman1]

A good analysis Mick , as a child in the 50's, it took me several weeks of money earned from doing chores in our street to be able to build and fly a very simple control line model, and a half pint of KK diesel fuel had to last a month. Today's boy can have a radio controlled 'drone' at little cost, zero constructive effort, and annoy the neighbours without having to cycle several miles to a club flying field and be guided by others. The gratification is instant and the child probably will not have received adult guidance in operating it safely, so because of the extensive annoyance caused by widespread ownership, legislation follows. As you say, what else can the legislators do.

Political and economic meddling in other countries' affairs by the powerful nations of the world has bred many individuals who will use just about any means to fight those that they perceive to be their oppressor, and as just about anything can be used as a weapon , it is quite likely that more activities will be scrutinized and ultimately be regulated by government and its agencies. Perhaps it is because western, especially European countries are so averse to applying harsh punishment of lawbreakers, they seek to remove the means of harm instead.

A recent example is of course the legislation concerning acids, which has possibly caused irritation to many here and in micro-manufacturers throughout the land, but although it may bring some reassurance to the general public, it will achieve the square root of SFA in preventing those with malicious intent from creating harm to others.

Trevor

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by SillyOldDuffer on 28/08/2018 15:59:09:

For the same pthe heavy silver-plated STC 4X150A on the right kicks bottom. With force air cooling through the fins and 2000V on the anode, it's good for 300W output, woof woof.

.

With apologies for the snapshot quality … I couldn't miss the opportunity for a 'Crocodile Dundee' moment:

**LINK**

.

Yes, it's only audio frequency; but …

MichaelG.

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Had I not missed MichaelG's Crocodile Dundee triode when first posted, I would have whipped this baby from my back pocket.

It's an ex-government 4-1000A beam tetrode. With 6000V on the anode and 45 cubic feet per minute of force air cooling, it'll deliver 4.6 Horsepower of FM Radio to an aerial.

Electronic valves are fascinating. Back in the day, they were leading edge technology. The glass bottle contains a better vacuum than exists in outer-space, and the electrode assembly is a miracle of precision engineering in exotic materials like tungsten, zirconium, strontium, vanadium, graphite, and cobalt. Parts were spot welded by operators looking through a microscope.

I've hankered after making a simple valve myself, just to see if it can be done.

Dave

[Alan VosParticipant @alanvos39612]

Posted by SillyOldDuffer on 02/09/2018 12:55:23:

I've hankered after making a simple valve myself, just to see if it can be done.

It can be done. **LINK** and **LINK**

[Author]

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