Long Term Planning for a Workshop Size

[Paul AtkinParticipant @paulatkin73780]

Currently I tinker with a little Unimat 3 in a spare bedroom. The modelling bug is with me but currently I have no space to expand, so as a long term project I want to build a workshop in the garden and stock it with a lathe and mill capable of doing "real" work.

As a reference, my ultimate aim would be to have a lathe and mill capable of machining something like the Stuart Models Victoria Twin http://www.stuartmodels.com/inprod_det.cfm/section/casting/mod_id/47 or similar

This has; Length 15.5 inch, Flywheel diameter 7 inch, bore 1 inch and stroke 2 inch.

My question is what size machines would I need in order to achieve this? The lathe I can understand pretty well, but I'm not sure about a suitable capacity mill.

Once I understand the machine sizes, I can start planning and budgeting the building of the workshop.

 

Any advice would be gratefully received.

Edited By Paul Atkin on 20/01/2014 06:13:19

[Paul AtkinParticipant @paulatkin73780]

[John ShepherdParticipant @johnshepherd38883]

Paul

This question 'what size workshop/tooling' is asked a lot on this and similar forums. The truth is your workshop and tooling will never be big enough and you will have to make compromises.

From costly experience after starting small, the best advice I can give you is go for a lathe that has at least the capacity of a Myford ML7 or similar. I say this because there are many plans for tools and models that have been designed around that size of machine.

As far as a mill is concerned, mass and rigidity is the key. As an example I would say go for something bigger than a Sieg X2. I have one of these and it needs a lot of patience to do any serious or accurate work. However if I didn't have the X2 I would not have a mill at all so as I say, for most of us its all a compromise.

(Don't forget to make room and budget for things like a pedestal drill, grinder etc.)

Hope that helps.

[BazyleParticipant @bazyle]

The 'hobby room' NOT a workshop or you will frighten the neighbours, needs to be about 160sq ft ie slightly smaller than a garage but the maximum allowed without planning permission in most of the UK. Position it such that you can also have a 'carport' (covered area open on at least 3 sides) of the same size attached. (actually I think the carprot can be a bit larger without planning permission so check)

You might want to position it so that your extension shed (because you can have more than one shed provided each is below the threshold size) can be accessed via the dry area of the carport while ensuring the 'open on 3 sides' rule is obeyed.

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

I would say you could half that amount, I work in part of a 16×8 shed so actually model area is about 88sq ft and can happily make models larger than the Stuart Victoria, so 10x 8 would do any more I'm sure you could find something to fill the space with.

You could make the Victorial without a mill, many have been done with just a lathe equiped with a vertical slide, the mill just makes things easier, X2 or X3 mill would do. Lathe wise either a myford that has a gap or 10" swing lathe if no gap as there are a lot of stationary engine designs about that use 9" flywheels.

J

[Paul AtkinParticipant @paulatkin73780]

Thanks to all for the quick answers.

Just to paint the picture a little more, I am from the UK but actually live in Japan and believe me, there is no such thing as planning permission here. It seems that as long as your buildings are not actually overhanging your neighbour's property then all is cool. Having said that a half garage or 10'x8' shed would be easy to do.

As far as equipment is concerned, being here I am fairly limited on choice as model engineering is not so big it seems. A Myford would be impossible for sure. As in the UK, the only machine tools that are at all affordable are imported Chinese, probably from the same factory. Here are a couple of links to some Japanese companies, the pictures are quite self explanatory.

As far as I can tell, this "Mothmach" brand  http://www.senban.jp/product/PSF385VD.html is almost identical to the Warco models in the UK. http://item.rakuten.co.jp/auc-himitsukichi/c/0000000304/ This one has 250mm (diameter) swing and 400mm between centers weighing in at . (all metric here of course!!)

Then, this model http://www.senban.jp/product/PSL550VDR.html also with 250mm swing but with 550mm between centers is supplied by a company that does a complete re-build of machines as seen here http://www.senban.jp/target/inspection_l.html

On the mill, again same story with imports. It seems that this one is almost identical to the Sieg X2 http://www.senban.jp/product/PSF385VD.html and at 50kg, I could actually install this in my current hobby room indoors, but if I had to go up a size, then it is a huge jump in weight and it must be in an outbuilding. Again, that company seems to do some quite impressive tuning as seen here http://www.senban.jp/target/inspection_f.html

I had thought about a grinder, but it is tiny. Regarding the pedestal drill, is it strictly necessary when having a nice mill available?

Coming back to lathe size again, for a 7 inch flywheel you guys seem to be suggesting a 10 inch swing. Having that extra capacity makes working a bit easier I assume so as not to be working at the limits of the machine, correct? The reason I ask is because both those companies make lathes with 180mm swing (7 inches) which are much smaller and less than half the weight of the 10 inch swing machines. There seems to be a huge jump in size and weight which is the main reason why I started the topic.

Edited By Paul Atkin on 20/01/2014 16:01:16

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Of thetwo lathes I would go for the slightly longer distance between centres as its not so cramped.

The rough cast Stuart Flywheel will be a littel over the finished 7" so 7 1/4" or 185mm would be the minimum swing you would need. The thinking when I suggested something a little larger is that if you want to make other stationary steam engines in the future you will find that 7" is quite limiting in choice. The reason being is that a lot of models are designed with the Myford in mind and although this is spec'd as 7" centre height there is a gap in the bed which allows them to swing about 9 1/2" so lots of models have a 9" flywheel.

You could get away without a bench drill, I don't use mine that much now prefering to do all my drilling on the mill. But a small bench grinder is a must for sharpening tools

J

[BazyleParticipant @bazyle]

Don't forget weight (should) go up as the cube of the linear dimension and 7->10 is root 2.so the weight should be getting on for 2.5 times. If it is only big flywheels that you need to turn then you can do that in the mill if you get one using a rotary table. However it is hard to turn at the max capacity of any lathe because of the difficulty of getting the tool out far enough.

[Sub MandrelParticipant @submandrel]

Flywheel size is the limiting factor. I once told Anthony Mount that I'd like to make some of his designs but my favourites all had 8" flywheels a little too big for my lathe! They fit in the gap on a Myford series 7.

You should be able to turn a 7" Victoria flywheel on a standard mini-lathe (7 1/2" swing), although you will have to use a little thought when Mounting the tool in the toolpost. The trick is to mount a left hand knife tool lengthwise in the back of the four-way toolpost. There's also a simple mod to get 1/2" or more of extra travel I can detail if it helps.

An X2 mill is more than big enough to machine the bedplate, but there's no reason why you can't do this by hand techniques if you have the skills and patience.

I find a pillar drill invaluable – because it is ready (and therefore used) all the time. Changing tooling on a mill is a bind so I try to keep an ER25 collet chuck in as much of the time as possible.

Neil

[Gone AwayParticipant @goneaway]

Posted by Paul Atkin on 20/01/2014 15:56:25:

Regarding the pedestal drill, is it strictly necessary

I have a mill/drill (WM16 lookalike). I used to have a bench-drill but rarely used it after I got the mill so I bought a pillar drill instead. I don't use the pillar drill frequently but there are three occasions that I can think of when it's invaluable:

– When I have a setup on the mill that I don't want to disturb but I just have to drill some holes (or whatever) – possibly for another job.

– Unless you have a large mill, there are some jobs that are simply too large for the mill. They would likely be too large for a bench drill too. A pillar drill can accept seriously large (tall) workpieces.

– My pillar drill also has more power and I use it if, say, I want to use a fair-size holesaw to get a big hole fast (and, perhaps, finish by boring). That would blow the cut-out on my mill but the drill will handle it …. and I'm less fussed about getting heavy-handed if necessary on that machine.

In the end, only you can determine the likelihood that you will need the drill depending on what you want to do now and what you may graduate to. My suggestion would be to start without it but keep the money in your back pocket so you can get one in a hurry if it comes to it.

Edited By OMG on 20/01/2014 22:04:50

[Paul AtkinParticipant @paulatkin73780]

Wow, thanks for all the help again.

JasonB & Stub Mandrel – Thanks for the explanation on the flywheel size. As for the future, I know that this, like any hobby can grab you and suck you in so I have to be strong and set my limits somewhere. Remember, at the moment I am not buying machinery – that will hopefully come later, my first job is to arrange the necessary space so based on what you have told me, I will work on the basis of a 250mm (10 inch) swing lathe with 550mm center distance for sizing the workshop.

Bazyle – I get the weight thing but when I look at various lathe and mill sizes, the weight seems to take an enormous leap from the 40-50kg range up to 150-160kg with nothing between, especially with the models I see here in Japan. My "workshop" is likely to be some form of shed without a solid floor – see the link below, this might be okay for the smaller machines, but for 150kg I will certainly need to put more thought into foundations. I can't pour concrete because my house is rented, I would probably need to lay paving slabs and rest the floor of the shed onto them, or leave out the floor and just build the shed around a paving slab base.

OMG – Thanks for the hints on the drill, I will plan to keep space for it at this time.

This has all been very helpful, thank you all. I will now need to confirm machine dimensions and make a floor plan with adequate working space so I can search for a suitable shed. Something like this which is 3.1m x 2.6 giving 81sq ft of floorspace

[Another JohnSParticipant @anotherjohns]

Paul;

Kozo Hiraoka lived in Japan, and I think somewhere in the Middle East for a bit of time.

His models and model designs are incredible. (Google him).

I seem to remember that his workshop was approx 8 feet x 8 feet, in the corner of his living room. He had a Maximat 7 (may still have it) and it's vertical head, so he had a mill and drill press and lathe in one machine. Not ideal, but, if I produced 10% of what he could produce…

Seriously, look and find his books, and read the back chapters on tooling, etc. Actually, the *whole* book is a treasure, not just the back chapters, as he shows many complex machining operations in simple ways.

John

**LINK**

[Speedy Builder5Participant @speedybuilder5]

Re the workshop. Make use of the 'loft space' for storage of materials. My shed has a boarded in loft area at one end for boxes of plumbing, electrical, and come in handy bits. On the rafters are longer bits of 'stock'

[John McNamaraParticipant @johnmcnamara74883]

Hi Paul

My shed is part of a car garage It is rather cramped. There is enough room for the lathe, mill, drill press, mill drill, and a few grinders etc. The problem is storage. Particularly of items that are planned for future projects or might come in handy that you do not need at the moment ….

I was able to move some of the stuff into the house attic. Also all the garden stuff mower etc. now resides in a small out of site lean to cupboard shed at the side of the house.

For storage of things I want in the shed I use standard industrial part boxes on second hand industrial metal shelves closely spaced to fit the boxes, some are heavy fibre board some are plastic. I got some from a second hand dealer and some at a machinery auction quite cheaply, and in good condition.

Small parts like fasteners are not kept in part full boxes, I put them in plastic zipper bags, you can get them from the supermarket quite cheaply in boxes of fifty or so. These I place in the part boxes grouped by type with a sticky label on the front of the part box, the bags of parts nestle quite nicely together.

The enemy is air, pack the parts tight. It is easy enough to flip through the bags in one box to find the part you want. You don't have to open the bag. The bags help to keep the rust at bay too.

However whatever size shed you build it will never be big enough.

Regards
John

Edited By John McNamara on 21/01/2014 15:28:44

[Howard LewisParticipant @howardlewis46836]

Someone once said to me, "You can do small work in a big lathe, but you can't do big work in a small lathe".

So my advice would be to buy machines that seem a bit larger than your immediate need.

Workshops can always be bigger, although the larger the shop the more problem it is keeping it warm, or cool, depending upon ambient temperatures.

My workshop is 6 feet 9 inches by 10 feet 9 inches, externally, with 19mm outer cladding on 50mm frame work, with glassfibre insulation between the 12mm ply inner cladding. The roof is two layers of felt on 12mm ply on 50mm framing, with glassfibre between and 12mm ply inner cladding. The floor is 18mm ply supported on five off, 8 inch by two inch bearers on concrete slabs.

Heating is by a thermostatically controlled 2 Kw fan heater, on the floor under the fitting bench. ventilation is by a six inch fan set into the back wall, with fixed vents at floor level. The intake is cowled to prevent ingress of rain. You may need something different for your climate.

The door is at one end, offset to match the 18 inch wide fitting bench. The lathe is on a 30 inch wide bench on the other side of the narrow aisle, beyond a small bench carrying the surface plate, with a tool cabinet containing measuring equipment, stored on top of it.

All benches are steel of 37mm angle iron or box section construction

The Mill/Drill is on a bench across the end of the shop, placed so that at full travel, the table JUST clears the wall on the fitting bench side.

The pent roof is high enough to allow the drawbar to be removed from the Mill/Drill, and for the belt cover to be opened with the head at the top of the column.

Against the wall, the bench carries cabinets with small drawers containing milling cutters, hardware etc.

Shelves above the benches are used for storage, as is the space beneath the benches.

There are no windows, partly for security, and because the shelves, and their loads, would block them anyway.

For security, the door is a firedoor, fitted with a 6 lever lock, and hingebolts. You may not need to be so careful, but model engineer's equipment and output is prone to theft in U.K., and no doubt, elsewhere in the world.

Lighting is by two 85W fluorescent fitting end to end on the ceiling, with an LED worklight over the vice, and each side of the Mill/Drill, with a halogen lamp on the lathe.

Because there are no windows, there is an emergency light (11W fluorescent) mounted high on the inner end wall which cuts in if the mains power fails. Power is supplied from the house via a RCD, to the lights, and to eleven metalclad double sockets fed from a ring main.

Depending upon your viewpoint the shop is either "compact" or "congested". With very little free bench space, increasingly I think the latter, but the Director Gardening would not allow the Patio Wall, or the Bay tree to be moved!!

Hope that this gives some food for thought or ideas, even if only a warning not fall into the same trap!

Howard

[Another JohnSParticipant @anotherjohns]

Another thought – was at a friends place just over 1 week ago. Model builder, and professional machinist.

He's moved about 3 years ago, but this is the first time catching up.

Surprise:

– CNC mill;

– large lathe;

-puny drill press.

No manual mill. No large pillar drill (drill press over here)

Have pondered going for just a CNC mill and lathe, but I'm too mired in the old world to do that.

But, here's a very well respected machinist, no manual mill!

John.

[Oompa LumpaParticipant @oompalumpa34302]

"Lighting is by two 85W fluorescent fitting end to end on the ceiling, with an LED worklight over the vice, and each side of the Mill/Drill, with a halogen lamp on the lathe."

You could reduce the power consumption by about 120w if you replaced them with LED "tubes"

graham.

[John McNamaraParticipant @johnmcnamara74883]

Not wishing you to be LED astray,

LED Lights to me are not the ideal overhead lighting for spending long hours doing fine tolerance work under.
The light is harsh and the colour temperature is not as good as a daylight fluorescent tube.

Having replaced twenty low voltage down lights in my house with LED's that I was told by the supplier had equivalent light output, I find the ambience is not the same. I assume as time goes they will be improved on, they will get better, but I am rather disappointed with the ones I have now. I find they are not nice to read under.

Regards
john

[Oompa LumpaParticipant @oompalumpa34302]

"The light is harsh and the colour temperature is not as good as a daylight fluorescent tube."

Not wishing to disagree with anyone over this but this is typically the response from people who have been given either bad advice or sold unsuitable K value lighting, or a combination of both. I suppose if you replaced your "daylight flourescent" tubes with ones say for example for a Marine Fish Aquarium you would not be impressed.

Many tubes and replacement bulbs are of the 6000K value which is totally unsuitable (in my opinion) and should you replace them with 3800K or 4000K value tubes/bulbs you would be hard pushed to notice the difference. If you buy the bulbs (not tubes) from Ikea you will find they are 3800K (or very close) and Philips do a replacement, all glass, tube of 4000K value.

More information HERE

[Sub MandrelParticipant @submandrel]

The high temperature (bluey white) LEDs are great for kitchens and areas you want to feel clean and fresh. they do wonders for our compared to halogen GU10s. Having seen two LED GU10s and 2 halogen GU10s in a 4-place fitting, 4W LEDS are brighter than 35W halogen – but less directional – so the halogen look brighter if you 'stare into the beam'.

The lower colour temperature (warm white) LEDs are ideal for bedrooms and living rooms you want to be 'cosy'.

I'm still debating the ideal type for a bathroom with Mrs Mandrel.

Those who want a particular colour might note that there are adjustable colour ones that smartphone users can tweek from anywhere in the world…

Neil

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