Lathe shocks

[Ian HewsonParticipant @ianhewson99641]

The most dangerous thing here, quite apart from his refusal to get proper help, is the fact that there is earth leakage current on his lathe.

Left unchecked it could potentially kill him.

Get that sorted out first by a competant electrician and stop all this guessing!

[Russell EberhardtParticipant @russelleberhardt48058]

Posted by Michael Gilligan on 04/08/2015 09:13:01:[Ignoring for the moment the fact that the lathe is not being earthed] … By using the plug upside down, he has effectively swapped Live and Neutral connections. This may be causing unexpected behaviour in the lathe electronics. … I know little about these effects [except that I have heard them on audio equipment] and would appreciate comment from our electronics experts.

Modern safety standards require that both live and neutral are considered to be live as far as safety is concerned. For that reason single pole mains switches went out (almost) with the arc. Safety testing requires that insulation tests are performed from both live and neutral to exposed metal parts.

Equally there will be no problem with the electronics.

Russell.

[Russell EberhardtParticipant @russelleberhardt48058]

Posted by Ian Hewson on 04/08/2015 09:54:09:

The most dangerous thing here, quite apart from his refusal to get proper help, is the fact that there is earth leakage current on his lathe.

The level of leakage he is talking about is quite normal. It is due to the capacitance between the live parts and the metalwork. Probably including interference suppression filters that are required to meet the EMC Directive.

If the leakage was more severe it would have blown a fuse or the earth leakage trip when the earth pin was connected.

Russell.

[Frances IoMParticipant @francesiom58905]

Part P had a significant job Protection(+ creation) aspect but there are many cases of stupid + extremely dangerous DIY installations though I have seen or heard of even more dangerous situations in industry/commercial buildings – however noting that the website suggested even reckons that the Israeli plug is the world’s most dangerous the significant danger is that in the absence of an earth connection (assuming this is itself correctly implemented)the failure of a single capacitor renders the machine lethal

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by Russell Eberhardt on 04/08/2015 10:54:05:

… single pole mains switches went out (almost) with the arc.

.

Accidental or deliberate pun, Russell ?

MichaelG.

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

Posted by Frances IoM on 04/08/2015 11:17:36:
Part P had a significant job Protection(+ creation) aspect but there are many cases of stupid + extremely dangerous DIY installations though I have seen or heard of even more dangerous situations in industry/commercial buildings

I know a kitchen installer who has told me several scare stories about what they find done by 'qualified' part-p electricians. The new rules have meant penny b-pinchers sending idiots on courses while the competent amateur is penalised. Latest is a gas fitter – sacked for blanking a pipe with a gland nut with a 20p piece stuck in it!

Neil

[AjohnwParticipant @ajohnw51620]

The only problem with using an adapter is finding the correct type. Ones that take the earth connection through are rare and for obvious reasons rather substantial. The company that provided one to me also sold to industry.

No so good in my opinion are the plugs that are beginning to appear where part clips on to suit various countries.

I'm surprised Israel don't allow people to fit plugs. I thought all countries did. Maybe we should all stock up in the UK in case the same happens here. Going on some used items I have bought in the past where some one has fitted a plug it might happen.

One easy way to see if people can fit plugs themselves is looking to see if DIY stores sell them.

John

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[John McNamaraParticipant @johnmcnamara74883]

Gee….

What can I say? there is a safety issue and yet the bodge job of using a totally naff adaptor is still being discussed.

I am speechless, well not quite… However what I would like to say is not printable here.

Regards
John

[AjohnwParticipant @ajohnw51620]

Posted by Neil Wyatt on 04/08/2015 11:26:04:

Posted by Frances IoM on 04/08/2015 11:17:36:
Part P had a significant job Protection(+ creation) aspect but there are many cases of stupid + extremely dangerous DIY installations though I have seen or heard of even more dangerous situations in industry/commercial buildings

I know a kitchen installer who has told me several scare stories about what they find done by 'qualified' part-p electricians. The new rules have meant penny b-pinchers sending idiots on courses while the competent amateur is penalised. Latest is a gas fitter – sacked for blanking a pipe with a gland nut with a 20p piece stuck in it!

Neil

There was an explosion in some flats by us a few years ago. Gas fitter sent to prison – the supervisor that told him what to do scot free as far as I am aware.

We had a new meter fitted recently. The fitter gave me a little preprinted piece of paper about earth bonding the pipes at the meter. He has to leave them more or less where ever he goes. He reckoned with 6mm cable. As bonding was talked about via the IEE a very long time before it became fact I asked if the alternative that was discussed was possible 1m local copper earth spike. Seems it is.

John

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[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by Neil Wyatt on 04/08/2015 11:26:04:

Latest is a gas fitter – sacked for blanking a pipe with a gland nut with a 20p piece stuck in it!

Neil

.

Trouble is, the 1p pieces aren't made of copper any more; just plated steel.

…. actually it's worse than that, because even 20p pieces have changed from 'nickel silver' to plated steel [or some other magnetic material] .

MichaelG.

 

 

Edited By Michael Gilligan on 04/08/2015 14:02:09

[AjohnwParticipant @ajohnw51620]

Posted by John McNamara on 04/08/2015 12:43:27:

Gee….

What can I say? there is a safety issue and yet the bodge job of using a totally naff adaptor is still being discussed.

I am speechless, well not quite… However what I would like to say is not printable here.

Regards
John

Perhaps you could post a photograph of the naff adapter you are referring to,

John

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[Harry WilkesParticipant @harrywilkes58467]

Ian

Good point !!! And Russell with electricity never make assumption !!! It may be normal but what if it's not ….

H

Posted by Ian Hewson on 04/08/2015 09:54:09:

The most dangerous thing here, quite apart from his refusal to get proper help, is the fact that there is earth leakage current on his lathe.

Left unchecked it could potentially kill him.

Get that sorted out first by a competant electrician and stop all this guessing!

[John McNamaraParticipant @johnmcnamara74883]

Hi John W1

It is the use of an adaptor that is naff, no photo needed. It does not stop the existing plug being used without an adaptor, There is nothing to stop the adaptor being removed and the machine being plugged in and used without a proper earth. A bodge Job.

If this setup was found in a commercial situation the OH&S people would cordon off the machine immediately.

It should not be possible to bypass safety features in this case a properly wired earthed plug.

Regards
John

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by John McNamara on 04/08/2015 15:15:39:

Hi John W1

It is the use of an adaptor that is naff, no photo needed. It does not stop the existing plug being used without an adaptor, There is nothing to stop the adaptor being removed and the machine being plugged in and used without a proper earth. A bodge Job.

If this setup was found in a commercial situation the OH&S people would cordon off the machine immediately.

It should not be possible to bypass safety features in this case a properly wired earthed plug.

Regards
John

.

Very fair point, John

… although the underlying safety problem is actually inherrent in the design of the socket.

[quote] There is nothing to stop the adaptor being removed and the machine being plugged in and used without a proper earth. [/quote]

Thinks … To improve the safety of my suggested adapter lead … the trailing socket and the lathe plug could be enclosed within a sealed 'project box'. … Thus, no modifications to any suppliers equipment, etc.

MichaelG.

[AjohnwParticipant @ajohnw51620]

Have to admit that it is rather difficult to get a european plug of this design into a UK 3 pin socket and make contact. It's also a rather poor design of plug in some ways. The socket for it and on the adapters I mentioned have to be rather deep to ensure that the last connection broken when the plug is removed is earth and there are additional complications to make sure that the earth is firmly made.. In the UK the adapters also have to be fused.

This is one and as I mentioned have been used in work places.

As the OP doesn't want to continue getting shocks from the machine there really isn't any problems using a similar adapter but styled for his country at home. If he isn't confident about changing plugs etc it's a safer option. They will probably be available to him for that very reason.

John

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[Raymond AndersonParticipant @raymondanderson34407]

It's mind numbing to see this " saga " still continuing, considering the op was told about 40 posts ago to get the proper plug. How this post can elicit the amount of posts its got beggers belief ..

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by Raymond Anderson on 04/08/2015 16:55:28:

It's mind numbing to see this " saga " still continuing, considering the op was told about 40 posts ago to get the proper plug. How this post can elicit the amount of posts its got beggers belief ..

.

Getting [and fitting] "the proper plug" would involve removing the moulded-on original plug [with its advantages of originality and engineering superiority].

… For whatever reasons, Nitai has expressed his preference not to do that.

… Hence the various attempts to suggest an alternative approach.

MichaelG.

Edited By Michael Gilligan on 04/08/2015 17:04:30

[Ian PParticipant @ianp]

Posted by Raymond Anderson on 04/08/2015 16:55:28:

It's mind numbing to see this " saga " still continuing, considering the op was told about 40 posts ago to get the proper plug. How this post can elicit the amount of posts its got beggers belief ..

 

Raymond

Its ironic, I utterly and totally agree with you but is seconding your sentiments I add yet another message to the tally.

Ian P

Edit, 'Raymond' added as the post I referred to was no longer adjacent 

 

Edited By Ian Phillips on 04/08/2015 17:23:46

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

Alternative solution?

Neil

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by Ian Phillips on 04/08/2015 17:21:46:

Edit, 'Raymond' added as the post I referred to was no longer adjacent

.

It's O.K. Ian, I would have probably guessed, from the fact that you quoted Raymond's post.

MichaelG.

[Gordon WParticipant @gordonw]

Is there any good reason why an earth wire cannot be connected between the lathe and a known good earth ? I've done this on tools in my "outdoor " workshop and nothing has gone wrong yet.

[John McNamaraParticipant @johnmcnamara74883]

This might be a good reason?

Work related electrocutions: 6 dead
Home or leisure electrocutions: 22 dead

**LINK**

Yep the home is indeed a dangerous place. But it need not be; that is if people actually adhered to safe work practices, as is enforced in the workplace.

QED

Regards
John

 

 

Edited By John McNamara on 05/08/2015 09:48:46

[John Stevenson 1Participant @johnstevenson1]

Posted by Michael Gilligan on 04/08/2015 17:03:52:

Getting [and fitting] "the proper plug" would involve removing the moulded-on original plug [with its advantages of originality and engineering superiority].

MichaelG.

.

So that lathe is not available in other countries with different plugs on ??

If so there is nothing 'original' about the plug fitted. Rather the opposite in that it's been supplied with the wrong plug.

Must rush out and convert my van to left hand drive as it's a Fiat, made in Italy and therefore not 'original' in the UK.

Personally when I read these type of posts it comes to mind that when things go wrong with a machine there is this certain group of people who want to bash the not fit for purpose drum but in my book there are more owners not fit to use a machine.

If he can't sort it safely either by skill or paying someone who has then it needs to go back in the box and stop playing with it – simples.

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

John S

I'm honestly confused …

Are you having a dig at me.

.

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

I think Michael was being ironic, John.

I'm more concerned that a single statistic is being used to prove we should adopt industrial working practice in our home workshops.

I'd better go and check the PUWER sheet for each of my appliances is up to date, I'm sure John does this regularly.

Neil

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