Is society becoming more stupid

[CirclipParticipant @circlip]

If thine eye offends thee, don't read the posting.

 

Regards Ian.

Edited By Circlip on 09/03/2018 09:33:30

[Russell EberhardtParticipant @russelleberhardt48058]

Posted by Neil Wyatt on 09/03/2018 08:24:54:

"Using real examples, this booklet highlights the main causes of the 44 child deaths in agriculture from 1990-2000."

That's not good. However to put it into context, in 1990 alone there were over 600 child deaths through accidents.

Russell

[OldironParticipant @oldiron]

Posted by pgk pgk on 09/03/2018 09:16:32

We all used to swim in the local river every summer and I only recall one kid tangled in weeds and drowning

pgk

In 1962 my brother Alan died in exactly those circumstances in the river Ouse near Godmanchester locks. A tragic loss of a talented young man in his teens. Just a few lads & lasses out for a laugh on a Sunday afternoon.

regards

[pgk pgkParticipant @pgkpgk17461]

Posted by Oldiron on 09/03/2018 09:55:47:

Posted by pgk pgk on 09/03/2018 09:16:32

We all used to swim in the local river every summer and I only recall one kid tangled in weeds and drowning

pgk

In 1962 my brother Alan died in exactly those circumstances in the river Ouse near Godmanchester locks. A tragic loss of a talented young man in his teens. Just a few lads & lasses out for a laugh on a Sunday afternoon.

regards

Co-incidences like this are awful. As it happens this was also the Ouse we swam in although Willington near Bedford but the lad that did die was circa1962 as well – I'd have been 12 then and my folks were just starting to build their bungalow in the village. Most of us swam in the old mill pond but the unlucky kid went in the main weedy river near what's now called the Danish Camp.

pgk

[vintagengineerParticipant @vintagengineer]

Peanuts are not actually nuts they are legumes.

Posted by Mexican jon on 09/03/2018 02:53:53:

The world gone crazy

Edited By Mexican jon on 09/03/2018 02:54:33

[MWParticipant @mw27036]

I mean, we would like to think that a company put out a warning of hazard to particular groups of people as clear as they could make it.

I think people have always been prone to stupidity or cleverness at all times, so I couldn't say that anyone is becoming more or less stupid than they always were. Human nature remains as it always was.

I'm sure even Einstein did some things he felt pretty stupid about.

Michael W

 

 

Edited By Michael-w on 09/03/2018 10:34:13

[Brian GParticipant @briang]

The peanuts could have been exposed to a risk of cross contamination in the processing plant. Perhaps it is better to annoy a thousand people than kill one?

Brian

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

Posted by Brian G on 09/03/2018 10:35:04:

The peanuts could have been exposed to a risk of cross contamination in the processing plant. Perhaps it is better to annoy a thousand people than kill one?

Brian

The reason is simple. The legislation requires that ALL food that may contain nuts carry this warning.

A few non sequiturs is the consequence of avoiding a much more complex rule.

Edited By Neil Wyatt on 09/03/2018 10:44:34

[larry PhelanParticipant @larryphelan54019]

It Is not illegal to be stupid,just very common.

You dont believe it ? Just look around you and listen .

[Jon GibbsParticipant @jongibbs59756]

Posted by Michael-w on 09/03/2018 10:32:25:

I'm sure even Einstein did some things he felt pretty stupid about.

Completely off-topic but the things he did feel stupid about, he perhaps shouldn't have…

The cosmological constant that Einstein added into his equations for general relativity to ensure that the universe could be "static", and that came before Hubble discovered that the universe was expanding, he regretted afterwards. See **LINK**

"Einstein later reputedly referred to his failure to accept the validation of his equations—when they had predicted the expansion of the universe in theory, before it was demonstrated in observation of the cosmological red shift—as the "biggest blunder" of his life."

…but now it's being used to model the effects of Dark Matter and Dark Energy – even if it is with opposite sign to the one Einstein intended.

Jon

[Peter G. ShawParticipant @peterg-shaw75338]

Interestingly, my wife & I had a brief discussion only yesterday along similar lines, the reason being that our local hardware shop is up for sale again. Now this shop is very good – the range of items stocked is immense – over 30, 000 when I asked the previous owners once, but also they will obtain items for you even if they don't stock it. I managed to find some abbreviated accounts on the web, and I was surprised at how low the figures seemed to be, but then, I'm no expert when it comes to shopkeeping and financial accounts, and this makes me wonder if the shop is in decline. Which is where our discussion came in.

It seems to me that the ability of individuals to do things themselves is decreasing, in part due to, in my opinion, over cautious legislation, and in part due to manufacturers making items irrepairable, or at least not without a lot of messing about. The result is that people in general do not know the same things as their elders do/did. So practical ability would definitely seem to be decreasing unless the individual happens to be someone who has that dash of "tally-ho, let's have a go".

Another factor is the legal aspect – what is it, "where there's an accident, there's blame", or something, with the result that in general, people won't have a go, just in case they get landed with a huge bill. A good example is one I came across only this morning: my son-in-law runs an agricultural contracting business and his elder son assists. Now given the recent weather, you would think that "all hands to the pump" would apply, after all they have rather large 4-wheel drive tractors. So why were they not involved in clearing some of the outlying roads? Well, apparently, the council paper work involved is such that for the small number of times they might, note that word might, be called on, is such that it really is not worthwhile for them.

The final comment that I would make is that in general today, people expect far too much to be done for them. Instead of getting off their backsides and doing it themselves, they expect "the council" to do it for them.

So, are people getting more stupid? Yes, if by being stupid you mean unable to do things themselves. Of course, there is the other definition of "stupid", ie lacking sufficient intelligence, nous, common sense to be able to do things. That I'm not so sure of – we've always had "thicko's", and I do not see that much evidence of any increase here.

Regards,

ten0rman

[Mike PooleParticipant @mikepoole82104]

The trouble is the stupid seem to be able to reach breeding age before they do something terminally stupid so natural selection is failing us.

Mike

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Posted by Muzzer on 09/03/2018 09:25:25:

This is supposed to be an engineering website, albeit a hobby one but surely we should be dealing with evidence-based thoughts and actions here, …

Murray

Absolutely agree. Many friends in this thread have logical mistakes in their posts, which is surprising given the importance of logic in engineering, and ironic given the subject of the thread!

Fallacy of Composition is the most common boob, that is assuming from part of the evidence that the whole must be true. Placing too much value on limited personal experience is often the root cause. From my life:

• Granny smoked all her life and died of an unrelated disease. Therefore smoking is safe.
• In 1965 I crossed the English Channel once on a Car Ferry and no-one got seasick. Therefore anyone who gets seasick on a car ferry is a wimp.
• I have never had occasion to use a Fire Extinguisher. Therefore Fire Extinguishers are a waste of time.
• When younger I did many foolish things with mains and valve power supplies capable of putting out half an amp at 1200VDC. Therefore, as I never got electrocuted, the risk must be tiny.
• Once I was trapped on the foreshore when the tide came in and only escaped drowning by climbing a cliff. Therefore no-one need to worry about the same thing happening to a child.

Even though my personal experiences tell one story, the statistics tell another. Only by widening the pool does the truth emerge.

Poor humanity; even when we understand uncomfortable facts, we are liable to override logic in favour of emotion. I do it most of the time.

Dave

[Mike PooleParticipant @mikepoole82104]

Lighten up chaps, we are in the tea room and that is as bad as the pub if you want to chat s**t. Don't forget your sense of humour and that pinch of salt.

Mike

[Jon GibbsParticipant @jongibbs59756]

Posted by Mike Poole on 09/03/2018 11:49:57:

Lighten up chaps, we are in the tea room and that is as bad as the pub if you want to chat s**t. Don't forget your sense of humour and that pinch of salt.

Agreed. There've always been curmudgeonly old bu**ers like us bemoaning the stupidity of their society and there always will be.

…and there will always be 50% of the population below median intelligence dragging the rest of us down

[John CoatesParticipant @johncoates48577]

Posted by Muzzer on 09/03/2018 09:25:25:

This is supposed to be an engineering website, albeit a hobby one but surely we should be dealing with evidence-based thoughts and actions here, rather than silly, cynical and often uninformed opinions. Surely if you want to trade worthless hot air you should post on the Daily Hell / Dail Express / Jeremy Kyle / Jeremy Vine etc.

Murray

No this is exactly the right thread in the right bit of the forum to give me a good laugh when taking my lunch break

Don't stop Ancient Bemoaners – you are brightening my day!

Personally I blame the lawyers for seeking every opportunity to extract cash from the law abiding as reparation for the stupidity of some half wit e.g. the US case where they sued an airfield or plane owner or plane manufacturer when someone broke in and started up a plane and drove it around or flew it and did something like killed themselves or somebody else or a possum [probably fake news but you remember it?]

Owners manuals for motorcycles now state "No part of this machine is edible"

[OldironParticipant @oldiron]

Posted by John Coates on 09/03/2018 12:24:47:

Owners manuals for motorcycles now state "No part of this machine is edible"

Bloxxy hell I had better stop doing that then. Harleys were my favourite snack

[mick70Participant @mick70]

my youngest boy was making stuff on the lathe age 7 albeit with dad supervising and hand on em stop switch.

he can weld as well and did his own bike.

only reason doesn't now is no workshop and everything in storage.

but still goes climbing trees and wading in streams etc.

we even built shelter and slept out in woods last year.

i can send my 18 yr old girl a txt saying bring old clothes and get reply of yay adventure time.

although i worry about their safety i try to give them good memories.

and all my kids know safety first can't count number of times been caught and told off by them for being naughty daddy.

 

Edited By mick70 on 09/03/2018 13:21:43

[Sam Longley 1Participant @samlongley1]

Posted by Muzzer on 09/03/2018 09:25:25:

This is supposed to be an engineering website, albeit a hobby one but surely we should be dealing with evidence-based thoughts and actions here, rather than silly, cynical and often uninformed opinions. Surely if you want to trade worthless hot air you should post on the Daily Hell / Dail Express / Jeremy Kyle / Jeremy Vine etc.

Murray

Some of the posts may not be evidence based but the theme is the same. We are producing a protectionist society of young people with a poor practical self help experience of life. That actually has an indirect influence on our hobby —-so it is relevant to our forum.

It is relevant because the young of today are loosing the experience of practical project & the learning on how to develop practical skills of the type needed for our hobby. Perhaps thing like youtube take the necessity for practical experience away from life but surely the experience of doing something & actually learning from it must be better than looking at a screen. If the young are faced with things that make them aware of the dangers of life & make them actually do things for themselves it will develop a different mindset for the future

Just look at the things grandfathers can do in our hobbies that the young of today will never even understand. true they may never need to as things change – but is that the point? —If not Why do we still play with steam

[Ady1Participant @ady1]

It's not really the society, its the lawyers

If the system lets you sue someone for dumb stuff then the system only has itself to blame as it gets dumber and dumber

One kid in the US was sueing his parents because they wouldn't let him play football

[Martin KyteParticipant @martinkyte99762]

"Just look at the things grandfathers can do in our hobbies that the young of today will never even understand."

Now there is a two way street if ever I saw one and probably if you are a 'Grandad' one which has priority for oncoming traffic.

regards Martin

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

"Just look at the things the young of today can do in their hobbies that their grandfathers will never even understand."

[MWParticipant @mw27036]

I actually think that the young and the old have more in common in their struggles than they realise, it's the ones in the middle that they find it hardest to relate to.

Michael W

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Posted by Sam Longley 1 on 09/03/2018 13:27:46:

Posted by Muzzer on 09/03/2018 09:25:25:…

Some of the posts may not be evidence based but the theme is the same. We are producing a protectionist society of young people with a poor practical self help experience of life.

…

If the young are faced with things that make them aware of the dangers of life & make them actually do things for themselves it will develop a different mindset for the future

Just look at the things grandfathers can do in our hobbies that the young of today will never even understand. true they may never need to as things change – but is that the point? —If not Why do we still play with steam

I think you'll find that young people aren't quite as helpless as you imagine! A counter argument might mention Extreme Sports, most of which weren't done when I was a lad. Any volunteers for a day out Base Jumping or Powerbocking? Not me, the water might be cold.

Also of course, young people are interested in different things, and they work in a different world to us. Not for them the simplicity of manual labour, semi-skilled work and solid employers. The big money these days is in finance, insurance, and information not manufacture. Apple make more money than US Steel ever did.

I'm particularly conscious of change because my career was spent in computing where nothing remained stable for long, but the same extraordinary forces have ripped into many other aspects of British life. Shipbuilding, Coal Mining, Heavy Industry, Manufacturing, Chemicals, Railways and the High Street once dominated the economy. Not now.

Of course there are still hands-on jobs in Transport, Maintenance, Building and Agriculture but even there the trend is towards mechanisation. Things are replaced rather than mended. Modern workers are wanted to do brainwork on short-term contracts, possibly working from home, rather than spending 45 years in the same job. Like it or not it's a world that favours intellectual rather than practical skills. Not much call for Saggar Makers, Doffers, Datals, Tea Ladies and Ordinary Seamen. And people can be trained to do manual work if necessary. Being good at office work isn't safe either; artificial intelligence is starting to make inroads amongst the pen-pushers.

My view is that our education system is far from perfect. Nonetheless it's output is better attuned to what's likely to happen next than the curriculum of a 1950's style Secondary Modern teaching woodwork! The latter was good at the time: not now.

Bad idea to criticise a youngster face to face relative to the achievements of previous generations. If you push too hard, they're likely to forget politeness and put you right with a vengeance. Silly old granddad, no way would he ever pass a job interview.

Last week I suddenly realised it wasn't the 31st of February.

Made myself feel better by sneering at my Telecomms apprentice nephew because he doesn't even know what a 6V6 is. Can you believe it? No point in understanding 3G/4G interworking without knowing about beam tetrodes is there…

Dave

[vintagengineerParticipant @vintagengineer]

When I served my apprenticeship, the sparky's dept had a button on their counter with sign saying "do not press". Many an idiot pressed it unbeknown to them the button consisted of two contacts and when you pressed it you got a healthy wallop of electricity! Albeit with no amps.

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