Is CNC cheating

[Anonymous]

Posted by Bob Stevenson on 03/09/2016 16:31:44:

….If ANY part of your project was CNC'd then you have given away any right to the respect of craftsmanship!….fact!

Ah well, that's me ****ed. I'll get me coat on the way out.

Andrew

[Douglas SleighParticipant @douglassleigh56681]

I would love to know how many of the 3% that voted could actually use a CNC, cheating, Ha yeah right all CNC users just load magic into the machines and press the green button and a thing of total beauty drops out of the sky!!!

In reality using a CNC mill to make a good job takes more skill than any old school manufacturing techniques in fact you need to be able to machine conventionally before you can even contemplate using a CNC machine.

In reality it maters not a bit what people use to build their machines as long as they enjoy the process.

[mike TParticipant @miket56243]

That's me ****ed as well.

Where do you want me to send my Gold Medal and the Bradbury Winter Trophy to?

Mike

[DodParticipant @dod]

Posted by Michael Gilligan on 03/09/2016 19:37:15:

Posted by Nicholas Wheeler 1 on 03/09/2016 18:17:29:

Posted by Michael Gilligan on 03/09/2016 18:05:51:

The saddest thing about this thread, aside from the bickering, is that Neil's poll has only attracted 103 votes.

There is an obvious trend from those votes.

.

… But that is "amongst those that can be bothered to vote"

Will we ever know what [or indeed, if] the silent majority thinks

MichaelG.

In this debate , will we ever know what (or indeed, if) the silent minority thinks ??

Neutral Dod

[Michael CheckleyParticipant @michaelcheckley34085]

In my opinion it’s the fabrication aspects of models that separate the good models from the exceptional models and CNC won’t help much with this. The machining side is easy in comparison.

Thanks for the clarification Jason.

[JAParticipant @ja]

Perhaps those of the silent majority who have followed this posting do not want to vote.

An ancient Greek play, Aristophanes, all but satirized a lot of this debate in his play The Wasps.

JA

[Bob StevensonParticipant @bobstevenson13909]

It's not "sad" that few have voted,….I did not vote myself because none of the options reflect the views and perceptions that matter……as I see them.

 

I make clocks and would certainly use CNC for components were I to have access to it, then I could get on with the parts that would look horrible were they to be made by automation. Then again, I could'nt care less what people think about my methods or whether or not I use 'short cuts'

 

At the Alexandra Palace show in January my club (EFHC) had a stand where we displayed some completely hand made clocks,…my own clock was made with only one small part having been milled…..Everything else apart from arbors had been carved out with piercing saw and files. The attitudes of visitors were very interesting and often disturbing. We were frequently asked what software we used and one unpleasant character accused me of blatant lying when I told him that everything he was looking at was handwork! Most visitors seemed to think we were mad to do what we do without CNC and I got the distinct impression that membership would be enhanced if people could dabble with CNC in our workshop…..

 

However, visitors to model engineering shows are not the norm.  The norm are "punters" or 'Joe Public' and they don't really 'get' that there are people who make things by hand…..everything pops out of a machine and there is no actual skill in the making…….unless they see yo udo it.

Edited By Bob Stevenson on 03/09/2016 23:08:46

[julian atkinsParticipant @julianatkins58923]

I remember my old late friend Albert North giving me a billet of brass to turn up a GWR safety valve casing. At the club meeting a month later I showed the finished product, and described how it was turned then the flare filled to shape. 'Bollocks' said Arthur from the wings! He could not see how anyone could file the correct shape. He would have spent months making special jigs to fly cut the complicated radii!

Cheers,

Julian

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by Michael Gilligan on 03/09/2016 18:05:51:

The saddest thing about this thread, aside from the bickering, is that Neil's poll has only attracted 103 votes.

… Where are the other thousands [?] of readers ?

MichaelG.

.

In deference to Bob Stevenson, permit me to revise my opening words:

The saddest thing about this thread …

What saddens me most about this thread …

MichaelG.

.

Hopefully that will now read as a simple non-confrontational statement of personal opinion.

[jimmy bParticipant @jimmyb]

So, how would a skilled machinist fair?

Does it make you a cheat if you are a skilled engineer for a day job, then relax in your shed using similar machines?

Just awonderin

[Nicholas FarrParticipant @nicholasfarr14254]

Posted by jimmy b on 04/09/2016 07:10:54:

So, how would a skilled machinist fair?

 

Does it make you a cheat if you are a skilled engineer for a day job, then relax in your shed using similar machines?

 

Just awonderin

Hi, or a skilled welder, fabricator, fitter or other trades like carpentry and painting and electrical/electronics?

Regards Nick.

Edited By Nicholas Farr on 04/09/2016 07:56:34

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by Bob Stevenson on 03/09/2016 23:01:34:

I make clocks and would certainly use CNC for components were I to have access to it, then I could get on with the parts that would look horrible were they to be made by automation. Then again, I could'nt care less what people think about my methods or whether or not I use 'short cuts'

.

Good Morning, Bob

Sorry if I am labouring this [especially as I have no right to expect you to vote] but; the two sentences I have quoted suggest that a vote of either 'IF NOT DECLARED' or 'NO' would adequately reflect your opinion.

It just seemed a wasted opportunity, when Neil had gone to the trouble of preparing the 'Poll' and the 'turnout' was so poor.

MichaelG.

.

P.S. Perhaps your anecdote from the show tells us that CNC in the home workshop is becoming 'presumed' and is therefore 'not cheating' … but, that the special attribute of 'Made by Hand' should be declared.

[Bob StevensonParticipant @bobstevenson13909]

Hi Michael,…..It's probably my 'grumpy old git' side causing me to refuse the vote! it just seems inappropriate to vote on such an idea. Perhaps the difficulty is the use of "cheating" in the title. Cheating implies that someone is done out of something and I can't see who and what to my satisfaction!

…..The only person who gets "cheated" by use of automation in model engineering is (possibly) the maker who works only to impress others by his cleverness and 'skill'……but ALL of the many people I know who strive to make things are way past such egotism!

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by Bob Stevenson on 04/09/2016 08:52:32:

… it just seems inappropriate to vote on such an idea. Perhaps the difficulty is the use of "cheating" in the title.

.

Fair comment, Bob

MichaelG.

[Nicholas FarrParticipant @nicholasfarr14254]

Hi MichaelG, I'm siding with Bob a little bit. Generality speaking, I don't thank it matters, each to there own as they say, but if you intend to put anything on any type of public display, then I believe that any type of operation that is not within the scope of the majority should be declared. I think in competition entries, some form of notes should be compulsory to accompany the display with at least a brief description of machines and procedures used.

Regards Nick.

[John Stevenson 1Participant @johnstevenson1]

Anybody else thinks we have missed the point and are now onto armchair semantics ?

[MWParticipant @mw27036]

Posted by Bob Stevenson on 03/09/2016 23:01:34:

At the Alexandra Palace show in January my club (EFHC) had a stand where we displayed some completely hand made clocks,…my own clock was made with only one small part having been milled…..Everything else apart from arbors had been carved out with piercing saw and files. The attitudes of visitors were very interesting and often disturbing. We were frequently asked what software we used and one unpleasant character accused me of blatant lying when I told him that everything he was looking at was handwork! Most visitors seemed to think we were mad to do what we do without CNC and I got the distinct impression that membership would be enhanced if people could dabble with CNC in our workshop…..

I am surprised that no one was even complementary or in awe of how much work goes into it. I would be, atleast because i know that historically everything had to be hand made at some point. If you can make a clock by hand i take my hat off to you!

Michael W

[Bob StevensonParticipant @bobstevenson13909]

…………… We had some nice compliments but it's the general trends and overall impressions that I was trying to get across. It's always very interestign talking to the visitors to the show and we have lots of chat afterwards about things that were said and their attitudes to what we do and display………

……….The toughest thing about making a clock is that it takes a long time and your skill set increases rapidly…..then when you are actually assembling all the bits you are amazed and disgusted by how badly made the earlier parts are! When you get a compliment you KNOW the complimenter is nor really LOOKING!

[IanTParticipant @iant]

Maybe people aren't voting, simply because they are not that bothered about it?

Regards,

IanT

[HopperParticipant @hopper]

Posted by Michael Gilligan on 03/09/2016 18:05:51:

The saddest thing about this thread, aside from the bickering, is that Neil's poll has only attracted 103 votes.

… Where are the other thousands [?] of readers ?

MichaelG.

What thousands of other readers? The same 103 readers coming back multiple times more like it. Plus doubtless a number of others who take a look at the thread and regard it as too much tosspottery to be bothered with. It is quite possible there are many who simply don't give a toss.

[blowlampParticipant @blowlamp]

Posted by John Stevenson on 04/09/2016 09:08:00:
Anybody else thinks we have missed the point and are now onto armchair semantics ?

Too late for that… I'm already contemplating the implications of arthritic model engineers taking performance enhancing 'pain relief' drugs to boost their chances of a gold medal.

Martin.

[Tim StevensParticipant @timstevens64731]

There are two reasons I did not vote:

1. I could see no point.

2. the option I though best was not offered – 'It all depends'.

I suspect that I am not alone.

Cheers, Tim

[Dave MartinParticipant @davemartin29320]

Posted by John Stevenson on 04/09/2016 09:08:00:
Anybody else thinks we have missed the point and are now onto armchair semantics ?

Don't open any more cans of worms! – next thing we'll have is angst about whether you should have declared if it was an Ikea armchair or a hand-bodged chair made from greenwood on a manual pole-lathe!

Dave (IOM) – one of the 'silent majority' who hasn't voted, who has never built a model but uses the most appropriate manual or CNC machine when needed.

Edited By Dave Martin on 04/09/2016 10:15:12

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by Hopper on 04/09/2016 09:48:38:

.

The same 103 readers coming back multiple times more like it.

.

MTM's advertising department, and its clients, will be rather disappointed if that's true.

Perhaps Neil has some 'analytics' available ?

MichaelG.

[John Stevenson 1Participant @johnstevenson1]

Think I should enter a cnc built armchair into the next MEX ?

[Author]

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