Helping young people

[Peter G. ShawParticipant @peterg-shaw75338]

I've two grandsons: the older one when younger showed a lot of interest in engineering and indeed told his teacher that Grandad had a lathe etc. Because of this interest I let him loose on the equipment saying that the only rule is to not hurt himself and that I didn't care if he broke something as at least he has had a go. Unfortunately, it has all died a death.

The second grandson, although he has never shown much interest in that direction has actually been to a local plastics manufacturer on work experience and liked it so much that he has been back voluntarily in his ½term. Apparently, although a plastics firm, they make their own equipment as well so obviously there is an engineering dept there, albeit all CNC. This grandson, a few weeks ago came to me, again during holidays and asked to make some parts for his school project and as with his brother, I showed him how to do it and then left him to get on with it. It was interesting seeing him stop and think out the next step. He has applied to the plastics firm for both an electrical and engineering apprenticeship and although he failed the electrical, has been offered an engineering apprenticeship. Plus, he will be attending some sort of engineering course at the local technical college.

It's strange how this should happen – No.1 showed all the interest and aptitude and yet fell by the wayside, whilst No.2 showed no interest yet now has the engineering apprenticeship.

In respect of H&SE, and Data Protection for that matter, I've long been aware that there are an increasing number of people who use these regulations as an excuse to get out of doing something, or indeed preventing others from doing something yet they do not in fact know the rules themselves. And just as someone above has said, we in the UK are gradually being reduced to a situation where we cannot do anything for ourselves because a) we are not being taught how to do things; b) because of interfering regulations; and c) because of increasing complexity.

I'm 70. Over the years I have tackled just about every job that needed doing in my house. And when I say everything, I do mean just that. The list includes jobs which today require checking and testing by a so-called competant person. Same with cars & motorcycles although to be fair I've never had to tackle gearbox or engine problems, but most jobs otherwise. But how many people do that these days? I suspect that whereas 50 years ago people had a go, today people prefer to "get a man in". In one respect I was lucky as I could usually find someone amongst my colleagues who would give advice. And I think that is an important point in that there was a large number of people who did do things themselves and who were prepared to share their knowledge. It doesn't seem to happen today. Perhaps we have already lost that pool of knowledge.

Regards,

Peter G. Shaw

[Oompa LumpaParticipant @oompalumpa34302]

Posted by Peter Hall on 09/05/2014 17:57:58:

At the risk of going off at a slight tangent….

When I was at school in the late sixties I did "Metalwork" classes. To gain rudimentary skills in forging, we were required to make a set of three throwing knives. Oh, how I yearn for the good old days .

Pete

Actually, I made a sword. A Cutlass to be precise. Still have it somewhere. I remember bringing it home swiping into the bushes with it on the walk home – can you imagine!

graham.

(who also built a fair few Cannon too and some of them became quite black from the pyrotechnics!)

[Ian S CParticipant @iansc]

Breathing is bad for the health, according to reports on the news today.

The kids at the local High School each year build and race a Grass Cart, very similar to the standard Go Cart, they race against other schools from all over the country, and have had some success. The build includes machine shop work, welding, and all the calculations and drawings. Not sure if the drawings are pencil and paper, or CAD. I don't know what happens to all the carts, I suppose they flog them off at the end of each year. Ian S C

[Ady1Participant @ady1]

That cheese rolling competition is still going, despite the liberals best attempts to destroy it

————

Cheese-rolling returns with real wheel of Gloucester
Unofficial cheese-rolling races are to return with hardy chasers pursuing a real wheel of cheese.

Last year revellers had to chase a foam copy of the 7lb (3kg) double Gloucester down the 1:2 gradient Cooper's Hill.

The foam faux fromage was introduced after police told cheese maker Diana Smart, 87, she could be liable for legal claims if people were injured.

Ms Smart, said: "It was a bit nasty but this year I haven't heard from the police and I've made a cheese to roll."
Police 'cheese neutral'

The tradition, which dates back to at least the 19th Century, sees thrill-seekers hurling themselves down the hill near Brockworth in Gloucestershire.
But the official event was axed after more than 15,000 people turned up in 2009, sparking safety fears over numbers at the site.

Since then the daredevil dairy spectacular has been held unofficially, organised by local enthusiasts.

**LINK**

========

So despite everything determined people can keep a worthwhile tradition going through the bad times

Edited By Ady1 on 10/05/2014 11:45:44

[Derek DroverParticipant @derekdrover32802]

In the 80's we had the pleasure of making a screwdriver.. this required knurling on a lathe, and hammering out red hot steel to form the flat… and then made a garden trowel.. again hammering out red hot steel..

No safety goggles, just a cotton apron (we still had our ties on.. VERY flammable as I found out when I left school and burnt it!)

I just cant imagine school kids of today being allowed in the same room as a piece of hot steel !!!!

[WearyParticipant @weary]

OP – I wish you all the best in your endeavour, which seems eminently achievable to me. Of course there are 'difficulties' inherent in your proposal, but they can be overcome relatively easily – in my opinion anyway.

I teach young people (under 18) plumbing in a professional college setting.

Amongst other things I teach young people brazing, soldering, lead welding, we climb about on a steeply sloping 'artificial roof' some 2-3 metres above ground (yes, in the rain too), they build a 4 metre scaffold tower, they set-up and use oxy-acetylene equipment, and of course propane burners on a daily basis . In addition I teach older students, above 18, gas safety – they are working on deliberately sabotaged and definitely dangerous gas appliances.

All these potentially dangerous activities are accomplished as they always have been …… with only very minor injuries and burns. Yes, we do wear 'personal protective equipment' (PPE) but this is appropriate and diminishes neither the activity, nor the learning, nor the rewards that young people get from taking responsibility and learning. And, actually PPE of the period has always been worn…. look at those Victorian pics of workers with their clogs or heavy boots, leather aprons, leather gauntlets, dark lensed goggles, caps, etc. Despite the 'horror stories' in certain sections of the press, in the real world that I trudge through each day common sense is still applied and 'engineering' teaching goes on. I personally doubt the veracity of many of the horror stories which appear to have become almost mythic. In my experience many people, for reasons that I can only guess at, invent 'Health and Safety Regulations' and requirements that do not in reality exist. (I also teach Health and Safety Regulations, law and practical application.)

The students enjoy a bit of risk… and they and I know how to manage it. They know that they too have a responsibility to work safely with regard to their own safety and that of others and enjoy that responsibility. That is all that is required of you – and them.

I must admit, that sometimes I 'take short cuts' in safety practice – having carried out a brief mental 'risk assessment'. *laughs* But, actually, in our hearts, we all know that this is not truly a good idea.

 

The concerns over sexual contact with young people are similarly blown out of all proportion, almost to the point of hysteria – in my experience anyway – and easily managed by the suggestions of never being alone with a young person that others have made.  I would suggest that in fact matters can be arranged relatively easily to accomplish this without creating all kinds of 'regulations' and turning it into a major enterprise. I must however point out that I, and other staff too, are frequently alone with young people, and there has never been any suggestion of impropriety. Despite the scare-stories, one can touch young people as appropriate, as you have always been able to do. I teach the very fine hand control required for Oxy-acetylene lead welding by getting students who are struggling to stand behind me, place their hands over mine, and feel the tiny movements as I describe what I am doing. Sometimes the positions are reversed, with my hands over theirs guiding their movements. This is an accepted, successful (with some students) way of teaching the skill.

Truly,there in no need to 'invent' laws and regulations that do not actually exist as some individuals and organisations do.

I apologise that this posting has become so long, but I really felt the need to respond to some of the postings in this thread.

 

Regards,

 

Phil Roe

 

Edited By Weary on 10/05/2014 14:54:21

Edited By Weary on 10/05/2014 15:00:16

[Toys4boysParticipant @toys4boys]

Yep, I have to agree with Peter here. I also renovated my first, and present home from the ground up covering carpentry, plumbing, electrics, building, and everything else. If I was slightly unsure of how to do a job, I would speak to someone in the game, read up on the subject, find out if any regulations apply for the job in hand, and get it done. During this time, I watched my brother in law pay tradesmen time and time again at huge extra expense to get his house sorted. This actually resulted in many of his jobs being sub-standard, mostly due to searching out the cheapest quotes rather than taking the time and effort to complete the work for himself.

As a young kid in the 80s, I spent my weekends working in the garage with my dad fixing up classic cars, (mainly MGB's) and anything else that broke around the home. As did many, my dad had a hard upbringing in Liverpool which made him very skilled and resourceful, skills he enjoyed passing on.

I honestly believe that having such a positive role model growing up taught me some very important life skills, and imparted and understanding and willingness to learn and tackle new jobs with varying degrees of difficulty………………..engineering obviously being the pinnacle !!!!!!!

BRAVO for wanting to feed young minds with useful skills but as the others have said, you may have many hurdles ahead. Honestly, kids can't even play bloody conkers these days without a risk assessment meltdown.

[frank brownParticipant @frankbrown22225]

My son in law who runs a one man garage used to employ Saturday boys, quite often they were social outcasts, and he was like a surrogate father to them. He then thought that he should do this properly by taking on a YTS trainee. His workshop was inspected and he was turned down because he had no rest room. He has not employed boys since.

Frank

[Bob Brown 1Participant @bobbrown1]

I have a feeling that there is a major difference in a business taking on young people against someone willing to offer their workshop facilities for young people to use.

This would not be come and go as you please but more organised say workshop available to use two evenings a week or may be also a Saturday morning or some thing like that with myself in attendance at all times and only places for two or three people. That way my wife will also be about to supervise me and to provide refreshments (Tea), I'll cover all cost with the exception of any components/material they specifically need.

I use people as I understand they are now people holes in the road, not man holes or political correctness gone plane stupid.

[Russell EberhardtParticipant @russelleberhardt48058]

Posted by Bob Brown 1 on 10/05/2014 21:45:11:

I have a feeling that there is a major difference in a business taking on young people against someone willing to offer their workshop facilities for young people to use.

You are absolutely right. HSE is for health and safety at WORK. I'm sure however that you will be sensible and not let the youngsters take unreasonable risks.

Good luck Bob.

Russell.

[Bob Brown 1Participant @bobbrown1]

Safety glass a must when using any power tool, dust mask, gloves and aprons where appropriate, no ties or loose clothing, should not need ear defenders as nothing I have is very loud. Tool guards when/where appropriate and a couple of buckets of common sense.

[Andrew EvansParticipant @andrewevans67134]

I wish we could go back to the days when kids worked in the mills, thousands of people died in industrial accidents every year and hundreds of thousands more died from illnesses they contracted from working in toxic environments with no protection like mines / mills / chemical works. Halcyon days. Damn those liberals and elfandsafety busybodies who are destroying this country.

And I was told I couldn't employ local kids in my match making factory – ridiculous.

[Ady1Participant @ady1]

The worst excesses of the "good old days" can never return again because by 1928 everyone over 21 FINALLY had a vote in Britain

(The voting base had also been increased from 8 million posh people to 24 million humans in 1918, women under 30 being excluded)

[Bob Brown 1Participant @bobbrown1]

I read with interest the article "Crawley youth club" in latest release of ME regarding someone who has done what I had in mind.

It looks like parental permission is a must other than that it seems to present a few issues that are reasonably easy to overcome.

Time to get on with the workshop but still waiting on the planning permission to be approved.

[FMESParticipant @fmes]

Posted by jason udall on 09/05/2014 20:33:11:
To the op..best of luck.

I have read in trade papers that companies have/are avoiding employing under 18's..because they MIGHT have to put all staff/suppliers /carriers that MIGHT come in contact with the young person on a child protection course and carry out a criminal records buero check on such persons…
Now I use the word MIGHT. ..since they could not get "opinion" to definitively say if they did or didn't.
Thus..well the result is under 18's are becoming unemployable. ..

Edited By jason udall on 09/05/2014 20:34:06

Not just the under eighteens but 'vulnerable adults' too.

As we deal with school leaver apprentices (sixteen plus) all staff have to be fully vetted before contact is permitted and this applies equally to the older apprentices (eighteen plus) that have special educational needs.

[Bob Brown 1Participant @bobbrown1]

I must reiterate this is NOT a commercial idea and to try and apply the rather complex rules and regulations in the commercial workplace would mean that this would never move forward and I am sure that 99% do not apply. It is not work it is a pursuing a hobby, and allowing youngsters the opportunity to use a workshop to help them achieve this.

[michael coleParticipant @michaelcole91146]

Posted by Lofty76 on 11/05/2014 10:11:05:

Posted by jason udall on 09/05/2014 20:33:11:
To the op..best of luck.

I have read in trade papers that companies have/are avoiding employing under 18's..because they MIGHT have to put all staff/suppliers /carriers that MIGHT come in contact with the young person on a child protection course and carry out a criminal records buero check on such persons…
Now I use the word MIGHT. ..since they could not get "opinion" to definitively say if they did or didn't.
Thus..well the result is under 18's are becoming unemployable. ..

Edited By jason udall on 09/05/2014 20:34:06

Not just the under eighteens but 'vulnerable adults' too.

As we deal with school leaver apprentices (sixteen plus) all staff have to be fully vetted before contact is permitted and this applies equally to the older apprentices (eighteen plus) that have special educational needs.

Sorry Lofty and Jason but this is not true. The old CRB is now called the Disclosure and Barring Service after the CRB and ISA joined to become one organisation.

The law about who is entitled to a DBS check have changed a lot over the last couple of years and less people now are entitled to a check.

Incidental contact in a work role does not entitle someone to a check.

The best way to find out the real position is the contact the DBS and ask or read the DBS webpages.

https://www.gov.uk/government/organisations/disclosure-and-barring-service

customerservices@dbs.gsi.gov.uk

[FMESParticipant @fmes]

Whilst it is generally accepted that the Health and Safety Act is purely relevant in the working environment, it must be remembered that within English Law at least, each has a Duty of Care to his 'neighbour' and that the Tort of negligence can be applied if harm becomes them.

To actually invite youngsters into a risk laden environment without the necessary preparation and if need be third party indemnities is at very least foolhardy.

[Ady1Participant @ady1]

If you do go for it and need to deal with the council clergy etc then be careful how you describe things

They use questionnaires and various officious cabals to determine your status

——–

This was along the lines of allowing one or two or may be three access to our workshops

——-

For example, you may be better calling it hobbyrooms

Words matter to the clergy

At one point we were considering changing the name of our local park from Local Park to Local Gardens, each has a different legal status and a private park was more vulnerable to compulsory purchase legislation

Many words have a specific meaning in law

[FMESParticipant @fmes]

Posted by michael cole on 11/05/2014 10:48:23:

Posted by Lofty76 on 11/05/2014 10:11:05:

Posted by jason udall on 09/05/2014 20:33:11:
To the op..best of luck.

I have read in trade papers that companies have/are avoiding employing under 18's..because they MIGHT have to put all staff/suppliers /carriers that MIGHT come in contact with the young person on a child protection course and carry out a criminal records buero check on such persons…
Now I use the word MIGHT. ..since they could not get "opinion" to definitively say if they did or didn't.
Thus..well the result is under 18's are becoming unemployable. ..

Edited By jason udall on 09/05/2014 20:34:06

Not just the under eighteens but 'vulnerable adults' too.

As we deal with school leaver apprentices (sixteen plus) all staff have to be fully vetted before contact is permitted and this applies equally to the older apprentices (eighteen plus) that have special educational needs.

Sorry Lofty and Jason but this is not true. The old CRB is now called the Disclosure and Barring Service after the CRB and ISA joined to become one organisation.

The law about who is entitled to a DBS check have changed a lot over the last couple of years and less people now are entitled to a check.

Incidental contact in a work role does not entitle someone to a check.

The best way to find out the real position is the contact the DBS and ask or read the DBS webpages.

https://www.gov.uk/government/organisations/disclosure-and-barring-service

customerservices@dbs.gsi.gov.uk

We are DBS vetted Michael, I can't see any problem with my statement regarding vulnerable adults.

[Russell EberhardtParticipant @russelleberhardt48058]

Why all this talk about entitlement to a check? Surely the relevant thing here is any obligation to be checked. I cannot see any legislation that would compel Bob to get a check.

Russell.

[Ady1Participant @ady1]

The smoothness of your dealings with the council will also depend heavily upon the individual you have dealing with your case

They are massively inconsistent, ranging from total moron to professional and decent

It's like dealing with the police in a third world nation, you never know what kind of git you're going to get

[FMESParticipant @fmes]

Bob (op) if its any help look at what the scouts provide for even the smallest groups – **LINK**

 

Edited By Lofty76 on 11/05/2014 11:44:10

[Bob Brown 1Participant @bobbrown1]

One of the members of our club runs a Scout beaver group so will have a word with him next time I see him.

[Ady1Participant @ady1]

There should really be a "holding association" for model engineer clubs which can cover these issues and give proper guidance to clubs, like they do with the Scouts

The ME magazine, which benefits in no small part from the ME community, should really have been doing this from 50+ years ago

 

Edited By Ady1 on 11/05/2014 12:01:01

[Author]

Posts