Hello from Oxford – Problems with a SABEL lathe

[inapickleParticipant @inapickle]

[inapickleParticipant @inapickle]

Hi guys, new member here. Been lurking for quite a while though, finally registered in order to see some classifieds and now need to make a few posts in order to see them fully..

I also bought a Smart and Brown SABEL lathe not too long ago.. Kind of blindly.. Saw this

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Smart-and-Brown-Sabel-Lathe-/122838303363?nma=true&si=dyma1moYmadfT4LxrJFRlLcLvtM%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557 on eBay. The description seemed great, but I missed out on that. Sent a message to seller saying if the winning bidder wont follow up, let me know. After a while I get an answer saying theres no contact from the highest bidder and Im off to have a look at it. When I get there the lathe is partially disassembled and theres no way to see it running.. Anyway I bought it, kind of blame myself for not knowing what to look for, but hay ho you got to make mistakes in order to learn ay

The condition isnt great and I cant achieve a smooth surface finish no matter what I do.. One of the previous owners put grease literally everywhere.. apron, spindle, feedscrew, basically everywhere you can imagine. So one of the first jobs was to fully disassemble the lathe and thoroughly clean it. Now that Im looking back I should've painted it too.. Anyway, its a tad better now, but there's a lot of play everywhere. Also, the spindle/headstock shims were missing, so not knowing what they shoul be, I got some laminated ones from US for a Southbend. They're were quite cheap, but I paid more than half price for customs(18pounds). I also got the Southbend rebuild kit with new wicks, way wipers, manual, etc. So its looking a tad better now. Also installed a 1HP 3ph 4 pole motor along with vfd inverter.

[inapickleParticipant @inapickle]

So my main issue is the spindle. Following the instructions on shimming it up, you have to remove shims until there's 1thou play on the spindle end. If I tighten the caps to get to specifications, it gets so tight, that spindle barely rotates. And if I loosen it theres about 7 to 12 thou play.. So theres this spot where it has loads of play or if you tighten anymore it sort of starts seizing. So far I've figured two ways round it:

Either take it to engine builders / engineer shops, to have it bored out or honed or something?

Or I've seen a few Boxford headstocks that have tapered roller bearings and they seem like they'd fit fine dimension wise.

What would you guys do about it?

[inapickleParticipant @inapickle]

Oh and I forgot to mention that the spindle bearings are plain cast iron

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

Hello 'K'

Have you seen this: http://www.lathes.co.uk/sabel/

You should be able to get the spindle running OK by playing with the shims UNLESS the bore of the headstock is worn oval, in which case movement would be back and forth when up and down movement is adjusted correctly.

Neil

[inapickleParticipant @inapickle]

Hey thanks for reply, I have seen that site.
I think the bore is oval because as I mentioned if i tigthen it to spec with the help of shim removal, it requires force to turn the spindle, and if i loosen it just a tad the play becomes 7 to 12 thou. Theres no middle ground here for some reason.
I also have installed needle roller bearings to take up back and forth movement..
What would you do in this case?

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

Sadly hidden wear is the hazard with second hand machines.

My first move would be to make some accurate measurements on the spindle and the bore to quantify the wear. It may be possible to get it bored out and bronze inserts fitted.

It's also worth checking wear on the bed.

If the machine requires a bed regrind as well it may be time to decide whether it's worth the cost and effort required.

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

As Neil said but I'd put some photos on the forum for the experts to comment on. With lathes beauty is skin deep, however the photos might reveal enough to decide 'what next'? (Looks aren't a good indicator of condition compared with what a few cuts on a running machine will tell you!)

In the worst case a worn machine needs so much expensive remedial work it's cheaper to buy a new one. On the other hand, fixing it might be relatively straightforward or an attractive project in it's own right. More data needed; photos, measurements, and descriptions of how it cuts, good and bad. Do you know anything of the machine's history? Not all lathes are carefully cosseted by loving owners – a commercial owner might have flogged it to death.

Hope it comes good for you. Whatever happens please share more details of your lathes faults; beginners buying second-hand need to know what to look for. It's not easy!

Dave

[Brian WoodParticipant @brianwood45127]

Hello K,

I have a spare spindle in decent shape if you want to try it as a second opinion test on the bearings. I suspect the application of grease to everything had done the machine no favours and been squeezed out to leave 'dry' bearings

Sent me a PM if you would like me to parcel it up to send you, I live near Thirsk in North Yorkshire so visiting with it is out of the question.

Regards

Brian

[Stephen MillwardParticipant @stephenmillward99920]

Hi, I bought a disassembled SABEL 3 years ago, I was lucky as I've had no problems with it. I live near Reading so could easily come over to see if I can be of assistance diagnosing the problem.

Stephen

[HopperParticipant @hopper]

YOu might try a light smear of non-drying bearing blue on the spindle and see how the contact between spindle and bearing is. You may then be able to scrape off the high spots to bring the bearing back to round again. Not an easy task though.

[inapickleParticipant @inapickle]

Alright, thanks for the help guys, I didnt expect such support to be honest! Ill try to get some pics up of what were dealing with after work today

[inapickleParticipant @inapickle]

Okay heres some pics:
Sorry theyre scattered all over Im on my mobile at the moment and cant do too much about it

https://ibb.co/album/mH6PLa

Theres a pic with a smooth smooth flange. It didnt come out like that, took me loads of sanding to get there. And if youre wondering why the color is different towards the edge, I didnt have stock big enough, so had to build up some weld beads.

Anyway I see you guys are chipping in with suggestions and seem really helpful, so I feel like I need to return something, so if anyone needs something TIG welded get in touch

As for the spindle I ordered some non drying bearing blue, Ill take some pics when I get it, should be wed-fri

Today was messing with the lathe a bit and
I think I had put the compound rest’s gib in the wrong way. Can this affect much?
As for the finish im getting, if you can call it that, theres noticeable ridges, the nail barely passes over them. Its all aluminium by the way. Havent even tried harder metals yet.. I had tried HSS and carbide insert tooling and the finish varied only slightly

I apologise for my inability to lay down my thoughts in an easy to read manner, got a million things going through my mind right now!..

I also found out my co

[Stephen MillwardParticipant @stephenmillward99920]

I think you need to focus on establishing why the spindle is either locked up or 7 to 12 thou of play.

Ball gauges might help with taking an accurate measurement of the bore in two planes to check if it's oval. I've got a set you can borrow.

I notice someone has added oilers onto the top of the bearing, so perhaps the capillary oilers weren't working.

It's worth persevering with, although my SABEL is 65 years old, I find it's great to use and an improvement on two previous Myfords.

Regards Stephen

[Jeff DaymanParticipant @jeffdayman43397]

I have a 9" South Bend lathe (the one the Sabel machines were patterned after) and have had my spindle out to rework a few issues. Your lathe looks VERY similar to my South Bend.

The spindle on my South Bend is "superfinished" steel and it runs directly in the cast iron headstock bearings. My lathe appears to have only been oiled, no one ever greased it as far as I can see. Superfinishing is still done today for some parts, it is a special honing process done after precision grinding the spindle, to further improve its' roundness straightness and finish. Some cams and diesel fuel injectors are still made this way (or were until recently) in North America. Anyway, I would not let anyone loose with a grinder on the superfinished spindle of your lathe unless it shows blatant damage, ie scores or galling. In my lathe I did find a number of high spots in the headstock bearing (as Hopper mentioned to look for) and also a few artifacts that looked like chunks of swarf that got jammed in the bearing and gradually wore down. Despite these problems in the headstock bearings the spindle was very good, and I only stoned a couple of "dings" down with a 2000 grit stone and oil. In the headstock bearing next to the chuck I very carefully removed the chunks I mentioned and cleaned up the high spots with a riffler file and followed it up with fine stoning. after a thorough cleanup and wash-out I rechecked it with blue and it looked and felt much better. I'd recommend a very close exam of your headstock bearings. If they're all chewed up, fine, you could get them bored and bronze bushed. If they're mostly OK looking and smooth, I'd look for artifacts that don't belong there, clean them up like I did, and then adjust shims. At the far end as you did I added a needle brg and ground thick washer thrust takeup system. These mods transformed the lathe, it now has far better finish, no odd headstock brg noises under heavy loads, and no more "ticka ticka ticka" noise from that thrust end when drilling. I did not change the headstock shim packs on my lathe at all. With the shims on your lathe I would sneak up on them. If the original pack of shims is gone, take out all the shims and fit the spindle. Note if there is any up/down back/front spindle play, and how much of each, with a DTI. (if there is more than about .003" of free play up/down front/back the brgs / spindle may be too far gone, and rebuild may be needed, but try shimming as below first.) Measure the stack gap with feeler gauges (make sure the gap is clean first.) Then put a shim stack in that is about .0005" less than the measured gap also less the max play you measured. The headstock bolts can then be tightened gradually checking every 1/8 turn for spindle free movement. The bolts should not need to compress the headstock bearing overhang more than .005" or so or you risk breaking off the bearing overhang in the casting and scrapping the headstock if you do, so go easy and sneak up on it. This is NOT a job to do if you are tired, angry, or in a rambunctious mood. Care is needed. Add or remove shims in .0005" increments until the spindle runs free but with virtually no up/down back/front play.

After you get to that state, use only ISO 32 grade hydraulic jack oil in the bearings and mechanisms of the lathe. That is what South Bend recommended originally and it has worked great for over 25 years in my lathe. Grease is not recommended.

If you can't get it to that state, you may need to have the headstock bushed by an experienced machine tool rebuilder. Again though unless the superfinished spindle bearings are scored, grooved up or otherwise trashed, don't let anyone grind them.

Hope the above is useful.

Now waiting for the usual 15 armchair experts on the forum to tell us it's all wrong. Well, all I can say is it worked for me and was based on South Bend's recommended practices. My lathe works great.

[Brian WoodParticipant @brianwood45127]

Hello again K,

In addition to my offer of using my spare spindle to check your headstock and eliminate an oval spindle, I also have a bare headstock should you need it

I have not inspected the bearings having had no need to do so up till now, but if your tests prove bearing damage in yours it might be a big time and cost saving to swap the whole thing and rebuilt again around your running gear. I will in the meantime check it through with my spindle [I am pretty sure it must have come from it in the first place knowing something of it's history]

If you feel you need it please PM me and we can haggle to a mutually agreeable price

Regards

Brian

[inapickleParticipant @inapickle]

Alright guys, I've re-read the posts. I really do appreciate the help received!

As far as spare spindles and headstocks go, Ill wait a little, until the condition is known for sure. But its great knowing I have extra options!

I saw Stephen offered me to borrow some ball gauges, but wont the bearing grease show more or less the same result when it finally arrives?

As for cleanliness, I cleaned everything really well in my previous disassembly with the help of wd40/brake cleaner and superfine steel wooI think 0000 grade, cloths and loads of elbow grease. It was sanitary clean, the cleaning solution coming out was as clear as going in. So theres no need to worry about the gaps not being clean, etc.

I've got some time to spare right now, so Ill head to garage and disassemble the headstock to show you the condition of it in detail and it will be ready for bearing blue whenever it arrives

Ill try to take some measurements too, hopefully they will be of use!

Andy

[inapickleParticipant @inapickle]

Dont mean to spam, but I cant edit my posts on mobile. Heres some pictures

https://ibb.co/album/hxLMiv

There is scoring but theres nothing that really cathes the nail, obviously I can feel theyre there, but nothing really stops me getting from one side to the other.

On some images it appears like theres dirt in the headstock bearings, its actually only a reflection

Also the spindle must be hardened because file wont touch it. This condition was what originally got me thinking of taking it to machinists.. I was to take measurements, but its all tapered, so im not sure what to measure

Also, theres 2 factory oil fill spots and i sort of use them as 'dipsticks' and the bigger bearing fills/holds less oil than the small end. Oil escapes through the front of the headstock just underneath the spindle, I took a picture of it but its hard to see as the oil is clean, only shows up as a shinier spot. So it seems like the only oiling the front is receiving is what you fill up from the top of the bearing as the oil level on the big end sits below the wick level. Small end is about the same height as the wick.

Let me know if I should take some specific measurements that would help?

[Stephen MillwardParticipant @stephenmillward99920]

The marking blue will show where the spindle and bearing are rubbing, whereas ball gauges will allow a measurement to be taken. Have you looked on the smart and brown yahoo group, I think there are some posts there showing bearings that look worse than yours but still work ok. You mentioned installing roller needle bearings – was this on the cross slide, or the headstock spindle? Regards Stephen

[Brian WoodParticipant @brianwood45127]

Andy,

I confirm these spindle are hardened and yours looks to be in good shape. The bearings also look to be in good shape but of course it is impossible to tell if they have worn oval or not. I think we will have to wait and see what your blue indicator grease has to tell you about the fit of one in the other.

Reading back i was surprised that there is no 'grey' zone in the bearing clamping story with no progessive effects from tightening the clamping screws; as you describe it the spindle is either tight or slack by an unacceptable amount.

The tests with the marking grease will be revealing. Don't overdo the application, a light smear on the spindle is all that is needed to look for contact spots in areas of the bearing rather that even marking which is what you would hope to see.

Just a thought but are the bearing clamping screws a good fit in the threads. Smart and Brown would probably have anglicised the pitch and it could be that US pitch Southbend screws have been fitted at some time in the past, making for less than smooth action..

Regards

Brian

[Stephen MillwardParticipant @stephenmillward99920]

Two thoughts, 1 are you holding down the wicks when fitting the spindle? Otherwise some wick might get trapped between spindle and bearing. 2. The spindle nose looks different to mine, I'm sure mine doesn't have the bronze bit , so is the chuck fitted securely to the spindle and on the register?

[Brian WoodParticipant @brianwood45127]

Hello Stephen,

I too was curious about the bronze coloured bit, neither my spare spindle nor that fitted to the working lathe have it.

The spring loaded oiling felts are an added complication in fitting spindles, try as I might I couldn't find a side opening of any sort like that adopted by Myford for the front bearing on the ML7 to be able to pin them down and release them once the spindle was fully home.

Brian

[inapickleParticipant @inapickle]

The bearing cap threads arent that smooth to be honest, especially the small end. Maybe its the bolts themselves, Ill investigate further, but there is some varying resistance when torquing them down.

I did have issues with the chucks wanting to undo themselves and such when I first got the lathe and not wanting to screw on tight. But after cleaning the bores of the chucks and spindle threads they seem to sit fine and no longer want to undo themselves. Should I try removing that bronze bit? I thought it was screwed on the spindle, but its not, spins round its own axis with a bit of resistance. Im not a big fan of the chucks that came with the lathe. Both the 3 and the 4 jaw had surface rust. They were hard to tighten and I thought it was corrosion stopping them. Marked the 4 Jaw chuck and the backplate, to make sure I put it together as they sat before, broke it down to pieces, cleaned it out, but some of the jaws still have quite a bit of resistance when tightening/loosening them. This resistance seems like the jaw screws are rubbing on something but I couldnt really tell what when I had it apart. The seller said there were replacement jaws included, but as I later found out they are too big to fit..

As for holding down wicks, theres 2 small holes on each of the bearing faces, I just pushed down the wicks, stuck some thin stainless tig rod when fitting the spindle and it held them down fine. I tested it couple of times to make sure the wicks pop out when I remove the filler rod prior to fitting the spindle

I could upload the Southbend 9A rebuild manual that I got when I purchased the rebuild kit, about 40-60 pages as far as I remember. It's got parts list, detailed drawings, procedures, etc. Almost everything applies to this Smart and Brown lathe. If theres any interest?

I also discovered another issue – quick change gearbox. In very low feed speeds, both slides furthest to the right, everything seems fine and the leadscrew turns easily, but as soon as you increase the feed rate, theres this spot where it sort of binds. Like 3/4 of a turn go so-so and then you get into this binding and it wont turn anymore unless you reverse the direction. All this testing was done by hand, didnt send any power from the spindle as I didnt want to break any gears. But Ill leave this for later, just wanted to mention it, maybe someone had same issue and figured out what it was.

All that comes to my mind at the moment is "Why me problem" https://youtu.be/uqemucA0jLI?t=2m28s

[Brian WoodParticipant @brianwood45127]

Hello K,

Thank you for the explanations, but I didn't have the bronze coloured bit you mention, I have little idea what it is supposed to do. And thank you too for the information on holding down the wicks, I'll have to look again. My lathe has been painted in thick silvery anti-vandal elevator paint and I wonder if the openings have been blocked by the paint, I really couldn't believe that sort of detail wasn't present. I take it the access to these magic holes is from the outside of the headstock.

On receipt I took my gearbox to pieces to clean it and understand it's workings, mine is free running now over all the ratios. Having an open bottom it was very grubby in there, the lathe had been installed in a woodworking shop in a past existence and while I couldn't identify the make up of the crap that came out, it is quite likely to have been largely wood dust.

The motor was full of it; the previous owner had fitted a 1/2 hp motor with VFD that I have moved onto my Dore Westbury mill where I think it will be more useful. Therefore I refitted the old Crompton motor having dug out all this junk where I could—I had been told about it and was advised to test it electrically before use which thankfully checked out just fine. I still think the lathe is under powered and have a 3/4 HP motor ready to fit when the weather is more encouraging to work out there. My Myford ML7-R is about 3/4 HP and it is a smaller lathe, I have no trouble taking man sized cuts with that, you can hear it settle down to work without struggling on some of those.

As a side issue I have been plagued by belt slip, even when it was set near bar tight and finally spotted the problem. The aluminium 4 step cluster pulley on the countershaft had badly worn belt grooves of J section, the belt was actually running on the bottom. The 2 stage aluminium motor pulley was equally badly worn and the transmission as a whole was so I bad I was able to hold the chuck by hand with the motor running! I blame the wood dust for that wear.

All sorted now, I re-machined the grooves in the motor pulley and replaced the 4 step with the spare cast iron 4 step that fits the spindle, having cut off the integral gear on the end of it and sleeved the bore to suit the countershaft. This wasn't the act of vandalism it sounds like; the previous owner inherited the lathe with a broken tooth on that pulley cluster. found of course that the gear is not a spare part and in the end he bought a second lathe to rob that component from. All that was left of the carcase when I bought the lathe as a second machine from him was the headstock pretty much complete, a change wheel door and some other odds and ends. He covered his costs in the sale of bed, leadscrew, tailstock, gearbox and carriage parts

Enough for now

Regards

Brian

[Stephen MillwardParticipant @stephenmillward99920]

I also haven't been able to find the holes in the headstock for pinning down the wicks on my SABEL, although they are definitely shown on the smart & brown drawings. I wonder if they are plugged and painted over?

I do have the original test certificate, dated 3rd Feb 1953, with the names of who tested, checked and passed the lathe.

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